Rule of 7 and 17 Ever hear of these rules? What are they
#2
Posted 2014-June-28, 12:19
spadebaby, on 2014-June-28, 12:07, said:
play was necessary.
does anyone know what they are and how to use them?
Thanks,
Rule of 7 has to do with how long to hold up as declarer, see larry Cohen's description Larry's site
Rule of 17 has to do with trying for game (or bidding game) after partner opens a weak two spades or two hearts. Add your "trump support" to your HCP. If less than 17 you have no game, if 17 or more you can explore game. Larry has that one on his page as well (and some other rules too).
#3
Posted 2014-June-28, 13:18
#5
Posted 2014-June-28, 13:35
If partner opens a weak 2, add the number of high card points plus the number of trumps you hold. If the sum is at least 17, bid game in partner's suit. (Zeke Grabour, ACBL)
EDIT: Same as Ben ... I didn't see inquiry's first post .
This post has been edited by TWO4BRIDGE: 2014-June-28, 13:51
TWOferBRIDGE
"imo by far in bridge the least understood concept is how to bid over a jump-shift
( 1M-1NT!-3m-?? )." ....Justin Lall
" Did someone mention relays? " .... Zelandakh
K-Rex to Mikeh : " Sometimes you drive me nuts " .
#6
Posted 2014-June-28, 13:40
Zelandakh, on 2014-June-28, 13:18, said:
While your logic is somewhat flawed - I can want to be in game opposite a 14-count with three trumps, yet still not be worth a try opposite 12-14 with 2-3 trumps - I suspect Larry's rule is meant to apply to stronger weak twos than those typically played by Acolytes.
#9
Posted 2014-June-29, 10:39
TylerE, on 2014-June-29, 10:15, said:
Since this question is in the B/N Forum, I think many Rules of X are helpful. Eventually, most players will outgrow them, but they are good starting points to learn what you should be looking for when bidding.
#11
Posted 2014-June-29, 14:26
TylerE, on 2014-June-29, 13:33, said:
I don't think so. I found most of the Rule of X stuff very useful at start. Way too many things to think about as a novice, at least these were a starting point. When I got bad results for blindly applying those I stopped and thought why did that happen. It's not stopping people from advancing if they want to think about the game. If they don't care to think about the game in general, it hardly makes any difference whether they use the Rules of X or not.
#12
Posted 2014-June-29, 15:18
Open with 12HCP or more plus follow-ups
I'd stare at a nice 5-5 carder with 10HCP, sigh, and pass.
Then, Rule of 20 told me it's OK to open with 10 points and 5-5! What a relief that was, to finally have a "rule" confirming my gut feeling that it can't be right to pass with such cards.
3rd hand plays high
When defending NT, I'd fly with my highest honor without thinking any further.
Then, someone told me about the Rule of 11. I had played the K on a sequence where it would have been obvious to anyone with a little experience that declarer could only have a stiff (most likely the Ace). This "rule" forced me to stop, count the suit, look at the bidding, and try to figure out what declarer had. If anything, it taught me to count and think more than any other approach would have - at that point.
It's OK to open lighter in 3rd and 4th. That one had me all confused. When is it right, and why? So I just started to randomly open all 11s in 3rd and 4th.
Rule of 15 gave me some insight of why spades are more important than the other suits, and taught me to think not only about my own hand, but about what could happen all around the table.
#13
Posted 2014-June-29, 15:33
diana_eva, on 2014-June-29, 14:26, said:
I would have upvoted this post and the one after if I could. It's so "cool" to say "don't use rules or X, Y or Z" but it's not very helpful for people who have not played enough to develop judgment or to know what to think about, and need something to rely on. And it seems to be said so often when newer players ask about this sort of thing. It's as if some posters need to show off the fact that they are not beginners anymore.
#14
Posted 2014-June-29, 19:15
diana_eva, on 2014-June-29, 15:18, said:
I'd stare at a nice 5-5 carder with 10HCP, sigh, and pass.
Then, Rule of 20 told me it's OK to open with 10 points and 5-5! What a relief that was, to finally have a "rule" confirming my gut feeling that it can't be right to pass with such cards.
This example pretty much sums up exactly my issue with this type of thinking. Rather than doing some sort of new math, why not teach: Hands with long suits, and two suiters, often play much better than their point count would suggest, so look at your length and suit quality and upgrade accordingly.
Consider an example hand like xxxxx AK K xxxxx
#15
Posted 2014-June-29, 21:49
TylerE, on 2014-June-29, 19:15, said:
Consider an example hand like xxxxx AK K xxxxx
It's better to teach stuff like this like:
1. Make the point, e.g that hands with a long suit or two suiters play better, here are some examples
2. Here is a good rule of thumb that you can use in your decision making.
3. However, remain aware that there exceptions - e.g. your example hand. The rule cannot be taken with blind faith and you should use your judgement. You can then pose some questions about when you might apply the rule and when you might not.
Teaching the rule of thumb and teaching people to think critically are not mutually exclusive. Rules of thumb are very useful.
#16
Posted 2014-June-29, 22:26
#17
Posted 2014-June-30, 00:03
TylerE, on 2014-June-29, 19:15, said:
Consider an example hand like xxxxx AK K xxxxx
The point I was trying to make with this example isn't that beginners introduced to Rule of 20 discover a new god to follow, but rather that a simple "rule" like that, covering a specific situation or range of hands will be easier to grasp, apply, and experiment with, rather than something like "look at your length and suit quality and upgrade accordingly". For a real novice that's pretty much Chinese. They don't know what "upgrade accordingly" means when they're still at a level where they struggle with counting points, tricks and thinking about which hands are openings and which aren't.
#18
Posted 2014-June-30, 06:28
As an example, the rule of 11 (for 4th best leads) (and in its generalized form the rule of 15-n [for nth best leads]) is handy to calculate how many higher cards the unknown hand has. And once you know how many higher cards the unknown hand has, it is also easier to determine what these higher cards then could be. (It is also handy to determine what the other unknown hand knows about your hand.)
So, some of these rules work quite well, also for those beyond beginner level. Other rules are simply bad rules (e.g. the rule of 1-2-3 for preempts) that only work in a field of beginners only.
Rik
The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds the new discoveries, is not “Eureka!” (I found it!), but “That’s funny…” – Isaac Asimov
The only reason God did not put "Thou shalt mind thine own business" in the Ten Commandments was that He thought that it was too obvious to need stating. - Kenberg
#19
Posted 2014-June-30, 12:41
Anyone got a good reference for all those "Rule of"'s? Whether we agree with them or not, they are useful base-reference for teaching at various levels. I have my own "Rule of" 2&3, etc. which are not standard, but that is irrelevant. (Like, preempts should make it difficult for 2 people at the table, not 3.)
We got to a very light (and dangerous) 3NT. Partner thought he was providing 6 diamond tricks (he was). West lead the ♠K, and if you apply the rule of 7, you would count your seven spades and subtract 7 from 7 and get 0, so you would not duck the first trick. What happens if you win the first trick, they will win three spades and two aces for down one. Simple, deadly, defense before you have any chance for 9 tricks. East ♠7 was presumably standard count.
You don't have a lot of hope if West has four spades and either minor suit ace. So you need spades to split 3-3 or East to have both minor aces. This way, you can win 1S, 6D, and try to figure out a way to score a heart and either a second heart or a club. The solution is an endplay, you can watch it perform as you run of diamonds puts pressure on East. If he shorts clubs, you can attack those, if he short hearts, you can attack those. In the end position, if East tries a club, you know to jump up with the ♣K (and as result make an overtrick). The heart exit after winning the ♥A by East holds you to 9 tricks.
Anyway, the point is these rules are about as useful as "eight-ever, nine-never"... and probably not even that good (and eight-ever, nine-never isn't all that good... you have to think instead of applying such rules blindly.