[Winstonm]

fred, on Nov 11 2005, 01:16 PM, said:

For most of my bridge life I opened 1S and I was sure that was right.

Now I open 2C and I am sure that is right.

Perhaps this change can be explained as a result of my tendency toward more agressive 1-level openings. If you open light at the 1-level and if you are always super-solid for 2C, your 1-bids will have a very wide range. That puts a lot of pressure on responder either when he needs nothing to make a game or next to nothing to make a slam.

Lowering the standards for 2C openings makes things better in this regard.

There is a downside: your 2C auctions will sometimes be more difficult.

According to my current way of thinking, the gain (of playing slightly lighter 2C openings) is worth more than the loss (at least when you play lightish opening bids).

With this particular hand there is additional reason to open 2C. Any of the alternatives will often work, but any of the alternatives will also lead to disaster a significant % of the time. In other words, there are no really good alternatives.

Furthermore, when I pick up a hand like this, I make the practical assumption that we are going to play in at least game. 2C delivers that message rather nicely.

I would not be the least bit surprised if some day I change my mind (again) about all of this.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

Is this not the problem that led Vanderbilt, Shenken, Wei, and others to move to a forcing 1C?

If we begin to lower our standards of a 2C opening without gaining additional room to explore, it would seem better to simply go all the way and open 1C instead of 2C.

IMHO, it is not wise to try to combine methods which are unsuited to each other; Standard American, which is the mother of all methods around which a 2C forcing bid is used, was designed to be based more on power than fit - a reflection that goes all the way back to Goren, Roth, etc. Sound opening bids and the like.

With the move towards lighter openings, it seems logical to limit the ranges of these bids - not by moving down the requirements for 2C but by opening stronger hands 1C.

Perhaps some day (may have happened and I didn't notice) someone will create a 3-way system where 8-15 point hands are opened 1 naturally, 16+ hands are opened 1C, and some other bid is utilized to show only a few very specific hand types.

Then, some day I may flap my arms and fly to the moon, too.

Winston

[pigpenz]

Winstonm, on Nov 11 2005, 01:32 PM, said:

Then, some day I may flap my arms and fly to the moon, too.

Winston

then start flapping baby! just joking of course!
thats the problem with everything you have to adjust somewhere, people want to open light but say they play 2/1 Game Force very few adjust their 2/1 upwards for their light openers. Very few have understands as to if 2NT rebid is showing extras after 2/1. My point of view is coming from watcing people in ACBL games here on BBO. You see very few posts from people on the forum from people that play in ACBL games. The level of expertise bidding is almost non existent there.

So I like to post these here, cause the level of discussionon the forums is far better than what people are willing to play in those games

[mike777]

I can only guess but I assume playing 1nt and Mexican 2D off shape often takes a bunch of these wide ranging hands out of your one level bids and makes this style more playable? I do notice the Italians playing the Mexican. The other late night it was fun when p passed my Mexican and the opp kept asking me to explain my bid or if partner had forgotten.

In addition lightish opening may lead to more actions where the opp are overcalling and uncontested constructive auctions become more rare.

If you playing or defending more contested auctions then you will often have more information in the play or defense of the hand. Being able to use it to one's advantage is another matter.

[keylime]

Fred,

What's the general mood with regards to RESPONDING to the 2C opening?

Right now I'm using control responses but it's a minority.

[fred]

In America at least, probably the most common method is still 2D waiting with responder's rebid of 3 of cheapest suit as artificial 2nd negative. As far as I can tell, a sizable minority use 2H=negative and another sizable minority thinks this convention is horrible. I really like it and use it in my regular partnerships.

I also use 2S=8+ to 10 balanced. I don't know anyone else who plays this (actually as far as I know my current partner and I "invented" it, but I suspect not for the first time). This seems to work pretty well as it allows responder to get his values off his chest immediately when he is not quite strong enough to force to slam.

However I have been using this for a only a couple of years and its not like it comes up a lot or that I have done a scientific study of its effectiveness.

I use 2NT as a positive response in either major.

My perception is that control responses are not as popular now as they were a few years ago and that they were never as popular as 2H=negative is now.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[luke warm]

unless i misunderstood what fred wrote, he still plays 2C as game forcing... if that's the case (and i know a lot of folks who say it isn't), that makes the hand in question all a matter of opener's judgement... and that's a good thing... if i played as well as he or his partners play, maybe i'd open that hand 2C also.. it's a good hand but not good enough for me to insist on game (notice i said "for me")

as for control responses, i've never done any kind of objective study but i have noticed that on the hands i've had that were opened 2C, as opener i was very interested in the controls responder had... on the other hand, there has to be a reason that the majority of experts don't play it... i just don't understand that reason, that's all

[Kalvan14]

answering controls over 2C strikes me as the best way to loose another bidding level. Controls over 1C were used in the Neapolitan Club, and in the Blue Team Club; I played neapolitan for a time, and I always had a feeling that the first round (1C and control answer) was a lost opportunity.
In the Albarran System (canape') over 2C partner showed specific aces. They were the good old days, and 2 C was truly game forcing (and playing a canape' system there was no risk of a 1-level bid being passed). At least, specific aces might be very useful for slam bidding, on specific deals.
Nowadays I play a 2C "almost" forcing to game (includes the hands which in Acol would be opened 2M), with 2D waiting and paradox responses. It works pretty well.

[luke warm]

then i did misunderstand his post... "practical assumption" doesn't mean game force

[fred]

Some deals are perfect for control responses, of course, but here are 3 reasons why you might want to think twice about using them:

2C 2H
3H

2C 2S
3H

2C 2S
3S

What do responder's bids mean now? Are new suits natural or are they cuebids in support of opener's major? Does responder need more than just the controls he has already shown to make a slam try?

The root cause of this problem is that the control response has preempted the auction. No doubt you could make some sophisticated followup agreements to lessen this problem, but it will always be there on some deals.

The methods I advocate also make use of artificial 2H and 2S responses, but they almost never suffer from this problem:

When responder has bid 2H (negative) he can't cuebid - new suit bids are natural.

When responder has bid 2S (8+ to 10 balanced), he will almost always have a hand suitable for a cuebid and he will rarely have a hand in which he wants to introduce his own suit - new suit bids are cuebids. 3NT is a "negative", but responder is already know to have at least 2-card support for opener's suit as well as at least 8 points.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[fred]

Jlall, on Nov 11 2005, 10:19 PM, said:

luke warm, on Nov 11 2005, 05:06 PM, said:

unless i misunderstood what fred wrote, he still plays 2C as game forcing...

I cannot speak for fred but I'd guess he can play 2N or 3S or 2H (2C-2H-2N-p, 2C-2H-2S-3S, 2C-2H-p).

This is what I do:

- Definition of 2H negative is a hand that will either Pass a 2NT rebid or transfer to 3 of a major and then Pass.
- After 2H negative, opener has to keep bidding new suits to force. 2C-2H-3H counts as a new suit.
- Opener is allowed to pass 2H, but that doesn't happen very often.
- None of responder's rebids are forcing after he makes a 2H negative response

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[Fluffy]

I would open 1♠ planing torebid 2NT GF

[Winstonm]

Partner and I developed this set of responses, and I offer them for your amusement and use if anyone wishes to enhance.

2C-2D Waiting or negative, 0-15 but denies more than KK in controls.
2H=22-23 NT, passable with hearts or may correct to drop dead 2S
a)2N to play
b)3C puppet
c)3D/H transfers
d)3S puppet to 3N
e)3N- up for grabs...whatever you decide it should be.
2S=any 1 suited hand
a) responder bids 2N with unbalanced 6+.
b) 3C second negative with 0-5
c) 3D balanced hand pattern with 6+.
2N=25-26 nt (24 nt swing high or low based on judgement)
3C=two suiter clubs/hearts with game virtually assured in hearts opposite xx.
3D=two suiter diamonds/hearts as above
3H=two suiter in the majors as above
3S=two suiter in spades and diamonds as above
3N=solid minor 9 trick hand...one suit may be open.
4C=two suiter in spades and clubs as above.

Positve responses in suits are all transfers and show 5+ length and at minimum 2 prime covers, AK or AA:

2C-2H=spades
2S=hearts
2N=clubs
3C=diamonds
Opener's acceptance asks suit quality. Steps a la Precision.

2C-3D on up.

Balanced hands showing controls beginning with:
3D=Two prime cards, either AA or AK
3H=3 disconnected prime covers, A, K, K or A, A, K
3S=AK of spades and 1 other prime cover, A or K
3N=3 kings.
4C=AK of clubs and 1 other prime cover
4D=AK of diamonds and 1 other prime cover
4H=AK of hearts and 1 other prime cover.

If responder holds 4 prime covers, slam is virtually assured so he starts the auction with 2D and makes an impossible following bid such as 4N.

[pigpenz]

fred, on Nov 11 2005, 05:45 PM, said:

Jlall, on Nov 11 2005, 10:19 PM, said:

luke warm, on Nov 11 2005, 05:06 PM, said:

unless i misunderstood what fred wrote, he still plays 2C as game forcing...

I cannot speak for fred but I'd guess he can play 2N or 3S or 2H (2C-2H-2N-p, 2C-2H-2S-3S, 2C-2H-p).

This is what I do:

- Definition of 2H negative is a hand that will either Pass a 2NT rebid or transfer to 3 of a major and then Pass.
- After 2H negative, opener has to keep bidding new suits to force. 2C-2H-3H counts as a new suit.
- Opener is allowed to pass 2H, but that doesn't happen very often.
- None of responder's rebids are forcing after he makes a 2H negative response

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

yes Fred this makes the most sense, I tend to go out of my way to bid 2♦ waiting before i would bid 2♥ negative.

So Fred over
2♣ pass 2♥ pass
3minor is this forcing for one more bid or not??

where 2♥ is negative, and 2♦ is waiting

[inquiry]

pigpenz, on Nov 12 2005, 09:53 PM, said:

fred, on Nov 11 2005, 05:45 PM, said:

Jlall, on Nov 11 2005, 10:19 PM, said:

luke warm, on Nov 11 2005, 05:06 PM, said:

unless i misunderstood what fred wrote, he still plays 2C as game forcing...

I cannot speak for fred but I'd guess he can play 2N or 3S or 2H (2C-2H-2N-p, 2C-2H-2S-3S, 2C-2H-p).

This is what I do:

- Definition of 2H negative is a hand that will either Pass a 2NT rebid or transfer to 3 of a major and then Pass.
- After 2H negative, opener has to keep bidding new suits to force. 2C-2H-3H counts as a new suit.
- Opener is allowed to pass 2H, but that doesn't happen very often.
- None of responder's rebids are forcing after he makes a 2H negative response

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

yes Fred this makes the most sense, I tend to go out of my way to bid 2♦ waiting before i would bid 2♥ negative.

So Fred over
2♣ pass 2♥ pass
3minor is this forcing for one more bid or not??

where 2♥ is negative, and 2♦ is waiting

Pig...

Fred said... [QUOTE]- After 2H negative, opener has to keep bidding new suits to force. 2C-2H-3H counts as a new suit. [CODE]

In this context,
2C-2H-3D is a NEW suit thus, must be forcing, and
2C-2H-3C is a "new suit" even thoough clubs was bid before and would be forcing.

So yes, after 2H negative, 3m by opener is forcing

[kenberg]

I voted for 2C, assuming what is probably now viewed as archaic, namely that the bidding could proceed
2C 2D
2S 3C
3S Pass

If 2C followed by 2S is totally game forcing I a. wouldn't like it and b. would probably settle for 1S opening. I have less to no experience with 2C-2H as the bust but I assume that you can then get out in 3S so that would still be fine. Assuming I play any system where I can open 2C, bid and rebid spades, and where partner can first warn me he is weak and then pass 3S, I open 2C.

I play 2C in a very non-rigid, non-scientific but fairly practical way: If I can imagine a fair numer of hands, not just the perfect hand, where 1S could well be passed out making 4, I open 2C. That's the case here. With a lower ranking suit, I am more likely to open one of the suit for two reasons: The opponents are more likely to come to my rescue with a bid of their own if my partner lacks the ability to respond and, on other types of hands where the opponents are in there preemptively with their spades, I have at least got my suit in. 1D-(2S)-Pass -(3S) may be easier to cope with than 2C-(2S)-Pass -(3S). Also if I open the hand 2C and pard responds 2D, he might get to declare it. It's my hand and I want to play it.

k