[mr1303]

Scoring: IMP

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We had the following sequence:

1D (Precision style, 0+ cards, not 15-17 balanced) 1S
2S (may be 3 card support) 3C (natural long-suit game try)
3S 4S

Result +480.

Who should do more to find this, or are we just unlucky? How would you get there?

[temp3600]

I think North has a clear accept of the 3♣ game try. If he accepts via 4♣, the partnership can reach the slam.

[Fluffy]

After best aproach I would end up asking for keycads, then stop at 5 when 2 are missing.

[paulg]

Fluffy, on Feb 24 2007, 12:01 PM, said:

After best aproach I would end up asking for keycads, then stop at 5 when 2 are missing.

You only appear to be missing one keycard, plus the queen of trumps.

SuitPlay says that it is 53% to play the spade suit for no losers, so it only just a slam you want to be in but ONLY if you know that there are four spades opposite.

I too would have raised to 4♣ after game try.

p

[pbleighton]

"I too would have raised to 4♣ after game try."

Agree. AQxx in clubs just got huge.

This hand is tough, though. Missing slam is no shame. As South, I might have bid 4S rather than 3C opposite a limited opening. A 4S response to 3C could be done an a max rather than with club support, and you still have a small doubleton in hearts to contend with.

Peter

[hotShot]

South has a hand with only 5 looser, and his partner has shown 4 card fit for both suits and made a game try.
So south knows of 2 9-card fits with partner, and the only problems are the potential 2 ♥looser.
So I would make a 4♦ cuebid over 3♠ and wait for partner to cuebid ♥. After that simple RKCB will do the rest.

[Fluffy]

cardsharp, on Feb 24 2007, 11:18 AM, said:

Fluffy, on Feb 24 2007, 12:01 PM, said:

After best aproach I would end up asking for keycads, then stop at 5 when 2 are missing.

SuitPlay says that it is 53% to play the spade suit for no losers, so it only just a slam you want to be in but ONLY if you know that there are four spades opposite.

♠10 also has something to do, and its not the kind of card I have agreements to ask for . Also maybe it is north who asks for keycards, then he doesn't know if it is KQ(J) or AQ(J) of trumps missing.

I agree on this deal you wanna be in 6♠, but on general you don't, problem with slams on a finese is they are never only on a finese, you might be also missing ♣Q, ♣J, ♣ ruff, or anything else. Maybe some strong club openings let you know you are on the 52% margin that makes slam good, but my methods do not.

[skjaeran]

South will be the hand that takes control here.

Since he'll discover that the ♠Q and ♥A is missing, and probably won't know that norht holds the ♥Q, the slam will be odds against from his perspective.

So, unless you'll be able to locate the ♥Q, you should stay out of this slam.

[kenrexford]

It appears that South needs North to have club support, heart double control, and the spade Queen (minimum ♣QJ, ♥AK, ♠Q for 12 HCP) or great club support, single heart control, and the spade Queen (minimum ♥A, ♣AQ, ♠Q, for 12 HCP's), although, as seen, simply great club support and heart control might work if spade length is four times.

Four covers would have caused Opener to accept the game try, however. So, it appears that the only legitimate hope for South, after 3♠, is to bypass 3NT (not serious) and bid 4♦ (nonetheless interested). If South does this, North should probably move, as 3♠ was on the conservative end. At a minimum, he should bid 4♥, a punt bid confirming heart control.

That's my take if North bids this conservatively. Personally, IMO, the double club contribution, the fourth spade, and the realistic chance that the hearts provide two covers all merit a try-back by North of 3♥. This should isolate the useful diamond hole for South, who can now bid a serious 3NT. When North reciprocates with 4♣, South bids 4♦, and it seems that North has enough. If he is trump concerned, it will be nice to have some defaults for this type of auction.

The defaults that I like are for 3NT to have an "aura" of showing good trumps when no trump cuebid was available. Even if that is not the case, this should be one time when North can cue 4♥ not so much to show anything about hearts, but LTTC because trump quality is in question, and North is quite unconvinced himself.

[cherdano]

Playing 4S is fine. But I agree that 3S is an underbid.

[jdonn]

cardsharp, on Feb 24 2007, 06:18 AM, said:

SuitPlay says that it is 53% to play the spade suit for no losers, so it only just a slam you want to be in but ONLY if you know that there are four spades opposite.

So a 4-0 club break is 0% then? The slam is just a hair under 50%, so I think either reaching it or not reaching it is perfectly fine. I would have bid 4♠ as north, my partners' game tries in a suit always contain an honor (NEVER all low cards) so AQxx is too big. But 4♣ also seems like an overbid, I do have a balanced 11 count with no spade honors after all.

[paulg]

jdonn, on Feb 24 2007, 04:42 PM, said:

cardsharp, on Feb 24 2007, 06:18 AM, said:

SuitPlay says that it is 53% to play the spade suit for no losers, so it only just a slam you want to be in but ONLY if you know that there are four spades opposite.

So a 4-0 club break is 0% then?

I did think about it but then decided that the opps may well have called if one hand had a void ... and then I started wondering how 4-0 clubs would affect the calculation of trumps coming in, at which point I decided to ignore it

[Halo]

As North I would bid 4C over 3C (not 3S or 4S). After a 4D cue bid, even 6S immediately would not be unreasonable, but there are other approaches as well.

So, I'd say all North's fault. If you are going to open these hands, you need to keep faith with that decision - otherwise pass and let partner open.

[Apollo81]

beating a dead horse, North could have accepted the game try, but as others have pointed out there's nothing wrong with not being in slam here

[Halo]

Possibly.

I just wondered how many would be in six if North had passed and it was an auction after South opening one spade. If you do expect to reach it after say 1S-2NT,3C then you have to think about your bidding after light openings.

[Winstonm]

This, to me, is an excellent example of the problem I have brought up in other threads, and that is combining slam try/game try into the same bids - the problem being that the responder to the game try will alter his bids depending on what he expects trier to hold.

This auction, as stated: when the long suit game try is made with 3C, opener cannot know if reponder is on a 12-count and really only trying for game or whether a stronger hand is held, so he must assume the weaker and not show any extra values by the weakest bid of 3S.

Some could argue that opener should bid 4C or jump to 4S, but with a minimum opener opposite a 12-count that could easily land in a hopeless game.

My proposed solution to this quandry has always been this: take the one bid that is the least useful and transform that into a slam-try seperator: in this case, 3S.

In this case, the auction could have been: 1D-1S-2S-3S, which would be deemed game forcing and a slam try, after which 3N serious or frivilous by opener could also be used to further delineate hand types.

I think adding the serious and/or frivilous bid makes a lot of sense, especially in Precision-type systems where the opening hand can be a 10-11 count or a pretty good 14-15 count.

In the hand in question, missing the slam is no big deal, but if you changed the responding hand only slightly and made it AKJxxx, xx, A, Kxxx, then you have a very good slam yet the bidding would probably have been the same.

[etsand]

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