[Free]

♥ switch seems the only reasonable chance to defeat the contract.

[pclayton]

I wouldn't double with this, but I've seen you double with less. Of course, you are usually doubling ME, so you don't need much.

Pard probably led from 7-5, since I asked him to lead the shortest major. If pard led from K-9-7 or K-8-7, I won't be happy, but this is pretty unusual.

Pard has 5-7 points. I hope they aren't in diamonds.

I'll shift to the heart 3, since it looks like our best chance to beat this is to catch pard with AQx or A something 4th.

The other possibility is that pard has the K♣ and some other bits and pieces. I can actually see getting endplayed if declarer gets to the board, leads a spade forcing me to split, strips the red suits, and puts me in with a club for another spade lead but this seems remote.

[sathyab]

A low heart hoping that partner has HQx[x] of hearts and continues hearts if declarer plays low. If declarer's heart holding is stronger such as Axx of hearts and he ducks, partner will probably continue the suit anyway hoping you had Hxxx of hearts. But I don't see any other chances.

[jtfanclub]

Oh, why not, I'll bite.

If partner lead spades from H87, his hearts must be at least that good. If his hearts were Hxx, there'd be a restricted choice that he'd have picked a heart. Therefore, I think it more likely that he does not have the H87.

Besides, if I had Q87, I'd lead the queen. If partner has begun doubling with KTxxx of spades, we'll talk later. Otherwise, while the lead of a spade queen might cost us a trick, it guarantees that we'll set it up losing the lead only once. Leading a low spade might get us another trick, but we'll still have to lose the lead in the process.

[inquiry]

Ok, i woud not double, but i will not argue about it with you. But if doubled asked for a spade lead (some play that) i am not too happy right now. Better if partner lead from his best major.

What is missing now is KQ985 (we have seen the 76). If parnter is leading top of crap, he has 75, giving declearer KQ986. Let's hope not. If partner had 987, he would not lead the seven. So what could partner have? 975? Nope. 875, nope. Ok, I will play him for Q87, Q97, K97, or Q97. Do i need to worry about suit preference signal for clubs? Can declarer have 9 tricks if he blocks the club suit? Well, I can send ♣ signal on third round of spades. So I will continue spade jack and hope for the best. If the Jack wins, i will lead my smallest next.

[sathyab]

Yes it's entrirely possible that partner has led the 7 from H87 of spades. But here's another consideration: what'd he lead without the double ? A lead from AQxx was beating 3nt without the double. On a lead of a low heart Axxx, 3nt was going down if declarer had to lose the lead twice in clubs. So by doubling you have put yousrself in a position where you're forced to guess right at trick two without much of a clue.

I understand that if partner holds H87 of spades it caters to a lot more hands than the holding of KQxx or Aqx[x] of hearts with 7x of spades.

But I like the heart switch as it beats the hand when partner has AQx of hearts and KQxx as well. Holding AQx he wouldn't lead a heart, opting for a passive minor suit lead. From KQxx of hearts he may have led a heart diminishing our chances greatly if not ruining them completely. And you break even when partner would have led a heart from AQxx without the double.

[Winstonm]

Unless partner controls clubs we have lots of problems. So far it looks at though declarer started with KQxx of spades. 5431 pattern is the hope in clubs, at the least, but even then if declarer has the Kxx we are screwed.

I think the only reasonable way to beat this is to play opener for this hand:
KQxx, AQxx, KJ, xxx.

I'm going to attack the entries and play back a diamond now and a diamond again when I win the club ace.

[sathyab]

inquiry, on Mar 5 2007, 08:25 PM, said:

Ok, i woud not double, but i will not argue about it with you. But if doubled asked for a spade lead (some play that) i am not too happy right now. Better if partner lead from his best major.

What is missing now is KQ985 (we have seen the 76). If parnter is leading top of crap, he has 75, giving declearer KQ986. Let's hope not. If partner had 987, he would not lead the seven.  So what could partner have? 975? Nope. 875, nope. Ok, I will play him for Q87, Q97, K97, or Q97. Do i need to worry about suit preference signal for clubs? Can declarer have 9 tricks if he blocks the club suit? Well, I can send ♣ signal on third round of spades. So I will continue spade jack and hope for the best. If the Jack wins, i will lead my smallest next.

If partner is leading from a holding of 75 in spades declarer will have KQ86, not KQ986 as the 9 is in the dummy.

[Free]

It indeed depends on whether the double means "lead ♠" or "lead your worst M". If it specifically asks for ♠, then I think partner should lead his honour if he has one, just to make it easy for me. One down vs 2 down isn't the biggest goal here, you just want to defeat the contract (that's why the double)... It won't make much difference if partners may make 3NT and we defeat it by 1 or by 2.

[Apollo81]

I'd play a heart. Spades is supposedly his worse major, and I think theres a nonzero chance pard would lead high from ♠Q87.

[pclayton]

Jlall, on Mar 7 2007, 08:34 AM, said:

I shifted to a heart. Partner had the K87 of spades. oooooops lol.

Nice lead pard; oops.

This is some of the fallout doubling, I think. You are requesting a short major lead. When pard finds the lead that allows you to run 6 tricks off the top, it can't be read. Might pard find the lead without the double?

Not exactly the same, but similar. Twice in the LA regional a player a double of a Jacoby Transfer holding A - empty 5th and out. The lead of the 8 spot could not be determined to be a stiff or not. Once it was matchpoints and my pard made the double. We needed a side suit continuation to hold it to 4; the heart back allowed 6 to be made. The other time it was teams, and only an up was at stake.

[bid_em_up]

Jlall, on Mar 5 2007, 05:45 PM, said:

I honestly think this double is very clear but I don't really want to start a discussion about it, obviously it may or may not work, one could easily produce hands where it does or doesn't and arguments either way, and in general Xing with this hand type is not how people think about the game which is fine but I will always double with this one.

Justin,

I would like to hear your thoughts on why you will always X with this hand, if you don't mind.

Is it specifically done in an effort to get partner to find some other lead other than the expected club lead (which is most likely his normal lead)?

Is it done on the basis that RHO is likely to have only 9-10 hcp which means partner may have an entry to lead your suit a second time (assuming he found the right suit the first time)?

Does the X have any specific meaning as regarding which major suit partner should lead?

[bid_em_up]

Thanks.

DISCLAIMER: It was not my intent to create a long drawn out debate on the merits of the double. Personally, I'm not sure whether I agree or disagree with it, I can see merits for either side. But, I respect the fact that you probably have valid reasons for doing so and wanted to hear what they were. Thanks again.

EDIT: (Disclaimer added)

This post has been edited by bid_em_up: 2007-March-07, 13:40

[awm]

However, if we assume that the result (making or failing) is unchanged by the double, you're probably negative in expectation, since down one is only win two and making is lose 4 (making an overtrick and down two are roughly equal). The double only seems like a good idea if we believe that the contract is more likely to go down after the double than it would have been otherwise.

Strangely I'm not convinced of this, although it certainly depends a lot on partner's lead style. If partner's "normal" lead is a heart it's quite possible that the heart lead is better than the spade lead. It's true that a minor suit lead could be disastrous, but partner will tend to lead a major "when in doubt" on this bidding. In many cases setting the contract may require attacking a suit other than spades, which partner will frequently lead when we don't double, but which we will have to guess to switch to once a spade is lead to the ace.