[FrancesHinden]

Codo, on Jun 21 2007, 02:13 PM, said:

FrancesHinden, on Jun 21 2007, 09:13 PM, said:

1H on the first round looks obvious.

Even contemplating opening 4H on this hand - in any position or vulnerability, never mind 2nd vul - is an overbid.

Personally I've never really subscribed to the whole "1H - 1S - 2C on a 6-4 shows extra values" thing - it seems to be an American idea - so I'd rebid 2C without thinking too hard about it, but I don't feel very strongly as obviously either can work.

I would agree with you with most (all) 6-4 hands, but this is 74 with a real stable major suit: There is a borderline where to hide the 4 card minor. For me this hand passed the line.

I agree that you can have a hand where you choose to conceal the 4-card minor - for me, this particular hand is close and I don't feel particularly strongly (- AQJ10xxx Qx Jxxx, say, is all about hearts and just like everyone else I would not bother with the club suit).

But there seems to be a particular systemic agreement that 1H - 1S - 2C - (something) - more hearts shows more values than 1H - 1S - 2H, and I was trying to say that I don't play that, and if you do play it's a completely different bidding problem. I think proponents of that style would rebid 2H on x KJ10xxx Jx AKxx which I wouldn't dream of doing.

[Apollo81]

Quote

You're probably not going to be happy if you end in 2C. And you're very unlikely to convince partner to let you play in 4H when he has a stiff or void and a club fit that raises to 3C. I know every bid has its risks but I don't understand the gains of 2C.

I completely agree. I see virtually no upside to 2♣. If you're just planning on bidding 3♥ next you might as well do it now.

[pclayton]

If you are choosing to rebid 2♥ or 4♥ for whatever reason, then the reasons for 2♣ are probably unconvincing.

If you are a 2 or a 2.5♥ bidder, then 2♣ is sensible because: pard will discount medium pointed suit honors, but will like the ♠A /♦A's and the ♣Q. Pard shouldn't pass 2♣ except under the direst of circumstances.

I agree I like 3♥ playing a strong club, since 2♥ can be a lot weaker.

I also hate preempting on this hand initially.

[Fluffy]

FrancesHinden, on Jun 21 2007, 01:44 PM, said:

I think proponents of that style would rebid 2H on x KJ10xxx Jx AKxx which I wouldn't dream of doing.

With that hand I would bid 2♥ over 1NT forcing, but 2♣ over 1♠ or 1NT non forcing. I prefer to show a 5-4 than a 6-anything.

After 2♣ partner will normally pass or bid 2♥ so bidding hearts myself again is not something I worry about.


I am not sure if 1♥-1NT-2♣-2NT-3♥ is forcing, I would take it as sing off (you can bid 3♦ with the strong one), but 1♥-1♠-2♣-2♠-3♥ shows extras.


Anyway today's hand is 7-4, and 7-4 plays often better on 7-0 fit than 4-4 (4-5 is very different).

[pclayton]

FrancesHinden, on Jun 21 2007, 04:13 AM, said:

(snip)

Personally I've never really subscribed to the whole "1H - 1S - 2C on a 6-4 shows extra values" thing - it seems to be an American idea - so I'd rebid 2C without thinking too hard about it, but I don't feel very strongly as obviously either can work.

I think you are right about this, and these 2♣ rebids might be currently taken to an unhealthy extreme. In last month's MSC you had to choose a rebid after 1♦ - 1♥ looking at: ♠AKx ♥x ♦AJ87xx ♣Axx.

In spite of the crappy clubs, the majority vote was 2♣. Many of the comments were pointed toward the 'lousy' diamonds.

[skjaeran]

1. Agree with 1♥. Very hard to reach slam after 4♥ opening if partner lacks a ♠ control.

2. 2♥. I won't rebid 2♣, since I'd not be happy if I'm dropped there. And 2♣ 2♠ 3♥ sounds stronger than this hand.

[Gerben42]

4♥ with AK and a void is a bit awkward, so yes I agree with 1♥. I knew this was going to happen, now I bid... 3♥. It is unlikely that ♣ is the right strain and I really have a good hand.

[pbleighton]

Quote

btw prefer to open this hand 4H.

LOL.

Mike, you're having one of those *other* days, aren't you?

Peter

[kgr]

I open 1♥ and rebid 2♥.
1♠ of partner didn't improve my hand. With 2♥ it is clearer for partner that I'm weak then with 2♣.

[mikeh]

I rebid 2♣. I do believe in the sequence of ♥/♣/more ♥s as extra values.

It does have some benefits on a small number of hands. Thus 1♥ 1♠ 2♥ 2N 3♣ shows weakness with 6=4. This offers a chance to avoid a hopeless 2N, albeit at the risk of finding a hopeless 3♣ or 3♥

While we may be unhappy playing 2♣, we are, I think, slightly better off should he bid again, and he will usually bid again.

An immediate 3♥ is a mis-description of the hand.. especially the suit texture. 4♥ also shows a different hand.. certainly not a void spade and topless trump.

2♥ is the obvious alternative, but it is more likely to result in a missed game than is 2♣.

Summing up: 2♣ risks playing a silly partial, but 2♥ risks missing a decent game. Neither bid is LIKELY to result in either bad result, so I wouldn't get worked up other this choice (except that the hand has been posted, so I assume one or the other worked poorly)

[jdonn]

I guess it's minority but I would rebid 3♥, no reason to rebid 4 since if pard passes 3 we must be high enough, but if I rebid 2♥ I could miss a game. I would never rebid a 4 card club suit holding these hearts, ever, unless 2♣ was forcing.

I really don't think opening 4 is so bad though I would never do it. These sorts of things gain a lot of random swings even when you don't have the hand you are supposed to have.

[mikeh]

Jlall, on Jun 21 2007, 04:33 PM, said:

mikeh, on Jun 21 2007, 04:29 PM, said:

(except that the hand has been posted, so I assume one or the other worked poorly)

Every time I post a hand I get a comment like this, I don't really know why. Am I that results oriented? Whether you open 4H, open 1H and rebid 4H, open 1H and rebid 2H, open 1H and rebid 3H, or open 1H and rebid 2C you will get to 4H. Your bid doesn't matter at all. I just held this hand and had no idea wtf to do with it so thought I would post it.

Sorry, I didn't mean it that way. My take on this is that it is a normal human characteristic to remember, and relive, events where our difficult decision made a difference, either way. Some people tend to stress their triumphs, others their disasters and many talk about both. But most seem to not spend as much time discussing events in which their decision, no matter how tough it seemed, turned out to be irrelevant to the outcome. You are to be commended for a no n-results-oriented post

[FrancesHinden]

husband rebid 3H when I gave him the hand

[whereagles]

2♣, followed by 4♥.

Is pard the same looney as the 3 other hands?... lol.

[nige1]

Jlall, on Jun 20 2007, 08:39 PM, said:

♠ - ♥ Q J T 9 x x x ♦ Q x ♣ A K x x

You open 1H 2nd seat red/red, partner bids 1S.

Q1: Do you agree with 1H?
Q2: What do you do now?

IMO...
1. 1 ♥ = 10, 4 ♥ = 6.
2. 2 ♣ = 10, 2 ♥ = 6, 3 ♥ = 2, 4 ♥ = 1.

IMO You would not be too happy if partner passed 2 ♥ but you should be wary of leaping about with a void in partner's suit. Hence 2 ♣ is a sensible compromise.