[dake50]

How does 4S play in 4-3 fit after neg double? As likely as 3NT needing CK on or 2nd H-stop.

[foo]

dake50, on Jul 8 2007, 11:58 AM, said:

How does 4S play in 4-3 fit after neg double? As likely as 3N needing CK on or 2nd H-stop.

The problem with a Moysian ♠ contract when the short hand is 4333 is that the ruffs are all going to be in the long spade hand.

That makes the usual defense of forcing declarer to ruff with the long hand (AKA "Tapping Declarer") even more effective.

I haven't explicitly done the calculation as to which is better of the two scenarios you present, but I know that the 43 rates to be poor while 3N has a chance to be good because I don't know about those cards yet.

[FrancesHinden]

I really hate bidding NT without a stop in this sort of auction.
I particularly hate jumping to 2NT which should promise a solid stop, and usually a double (or some likelihood of a double) stop.

Saying we can get back out to 5m if we have no heart stop after bidding 2NT is a pipe dream. Looking at, say,

A109x
x
Kx
AKQxxx

partner is going to raise 2NT to 3NT and down we go when 5C is a great contract.

Playing a 4-card major system, where 1C natural and either strong balanced or 5+ clubs, I would bid 2H showing a good club raise.

As I can't do that opposite a possibly short club, the choices seem to be double, pass or 2D. If I play that double promises 4 spades I'm not doing that. Partner has the right to bid 4S over next hand's 3H or 4H bid.

With this shape and high cards it's a normal 2D bid, planning to pass partner's minimum rebid in NT or clubs, and give preference to 3C over a 2S bid.

I don't mind saying it's a horrible 11-count and passing, but to be honest I'd just bid 2D and be done with it.

With partner's actually hand opposite he will drive game (1C 1H 2D P 2H P 3C P 3NT P - showing some doubt that 3NT is right i.e. only one stop and some diamond support).

On the auction you had, it's important for North to realise that 3C is actually a constuctive bid here. If you had been dealt xxx xxx AQxx Jxx you certainly would have passed 1H and you need some way to show some values.

[nige1]

microcap, on Jul 7 2007, 03:56 PM, said:

As usual, my ferocious arguments with Rex come in more than one part.  So come back and visit for question 2 after a bunch of responses!

You are playing 2/1 with some oddities, but they aren't relevant here.

You hold in 3rd hand:

Scoring: IMP

♠	A1098
♥	A2
♦	J
♣	AQ10984

 

---

.

I bid 2 clubs, pass by LHO, now Rex bids 3♣  pass around when we are cold for 3NT and 5 clubs too!

Rex felt that his 3 club bid was constructive enough for me to go on with my nice hand.  I thought he had a few clubs and a 5 count and was trying to keep them out of the auction. 

Comments?

BTW, Rex has conceded graciously that pass was wrong after reading the forum responses.

If Rex passed earlier, can he recover after the actual auction?
1♣ (1♥) _P (1N)
2♣ (_P) ???

IMO, now 2♥ = 10, 3♦ = 8, 2N = 7, 4 ♣ = 6, 3♣ = 5, 3N = 4.
The Forum contributors who passed all said they would catch up with a later cuebid, and that should allow you to reach game in ♣ or no-trump.

[microcap]

We did all agree that 2♥ would have been a good catchup bid at the table---Rex just said it didn't occur to him at the time, as he thought his 3♣ bid was stronger than I thought it was.

Personally, I would have agreed with the 1NT bidders but the real argument was whether pass was a legitimate alternative. I think there is a pretty strong consensus that it was not.

Thanks to all as always.

[the hog]

This is a really good argument for playing that 1C (1X) 1S can be bid on a four carder, so the shown hand is an obvious X. This is actually what I play, but was pretty sure that most play that 1S shows 5 and X shows 4. This is pretty outdated imo, with this hand being a prime example why, though I will concede that you MIGHT get some advantage if lho bounces in the auction.

I can't understand why Rex would think 3C shows much. The other question to ask is "given that many overcall on 4 card suits, couldn't a 2H bid here be natural eg QJT9xx and not much else? Or even, as you bid 1NT, couldn't a 2H bid be interpreted as a t/f to S. eg a very weak hand that can't bid 1S over 1H, but thinks 2S may be a better contract than 1NT? I think 2H as a "catch up" call is awful unless you have discussed all these possible nuances.

All this just goes to show how awful the initial pass over 1H was.

[foo]

I agree with The Hog that passing after 1C-(1H)-?? when holding

♠ K53 ♥ J83 ♦ AQxx ♣ J62

is a bad, Bad, idea.

When you have invitational values, you shouldn't bid your hand the same way you would a zero count. pd will never be able to field it.

Besides, what if you do pass and it goes 1C-(1H)-pa-(3H/4H);pa-pa-??
Will you now overbid your hand to "make up' for underbidding it on the previous round?

The best solution IMHO is the Truscott solution. But even if you can't use that because you have not agreed it, you have to make some sort of forward going call.

[Fluffy]

This is clear double with normal agreements.

If you don't have such I prefer 2♥ over 2♦.

[jtfanclub]

nige1, on Jul 8 2007, 02:21 PM, said:

IMO 2♦ = 10, 2♣ = 9. 1N = 8, _P = 7, _X = 6.
Arguably, with the speciified methods, 2♣ may be better than 2♦

Don't leave out 2♥. If I had another point (so 1NT went from being hand evaluation to a deliberate misbid), and it didn't give me a full stop in hearts (I agree that 2NT must show a full stop), I would feel I had no choice but to bid 2 hearts. While it might not be the most accurate description of my hand, it seems to me to be the bid most likely to get us to the right contract, provided the right contract is 2NT or higher, of course.