[bid_em_up]

Edmunte1, on Jul 10 2007, 05:30 AM, said:

2) to play trump from dummy. Here we have 2 cases:
2.1) East plays the Ace and then play a high heart. [b]I ruff high[b], play diamond to A♦, [b]ruff high another heart[b], diamond to K♦, and play the last heart discarding a club, now East should play ruff and discard and concede the game (i'll make first ruff in dummy, then i have ♦ and ♣ in dummy to ruff in hand the suit that East keeps)

I think you lose your bet.

in 2.1)

You have lost the spade A. You are ruffing 2 hearts high (or so you stated), You are losing a heart as you pitch a club. At this point you are down to Kx in spades, having lost 2 tricks already. East now continues another heart. West can ruff (or overruff you if you choose to ruff at all) and then lead either minor suit on which East uppercuts you with the 10 of trumps to promote Wests last trump. So this line fails as it is stated.

It does appear to work as suggested by jtfanclub, however. Maybe that is what you meant to say....but you missed the part about cashing the spade K earlier. As he also implied, you are making an assumption that East will continue a heart at the point he is in with the spade Ace, and he may not......

(Note, this is the only case that matters, as you *had* to play a trump from dummy....what happens when East plays the spade 10 is not relevant as it is a double dummy problem, Case 2.2 is meaningless.)

I'm not claiming that there is not a 100% line for declarer to succeed or the defense will always prevail. Only that your stated lines are flawed.

Hope you didn't bet the farm on this one.

[Edmunte1]

Yes, sorry when i wrote, in line 2.1, i jumped over "i cash one round of trumps"

[Edmunte1]

jtfanclub, on Jul 10 2007, 12:37 PM, said:

But what happens on trick 5 if he leads a diamond back?

If West plays small on ♦9 i'll duck, if he covers, i'll come on trumps in hand, playing diamond again, if West plays the deuce i'll duck, if he plays high i'll take and make a natural diamond trick.

[bid_em_up]

Edmunte1, on Jul 10 2007, 01:44 PM, said:

jtfanclub, on Jul 10 2007, 12:37 PM, said:

But what happens on trick 5 if he leads a diamond back?

If West plays small on ♦9 i'll duck, if he covers, i'll come on trumps in hand, playing diamond again, if West plays the deuce i'll duck, if he plays high i'll take and make a natural diamond trick.

So you duck the diamond 9 with West playing the duece of diamonds. Thats two tricks lost. Now East continues the heart Q.

Now what?

P.S. I also think that covering the club at trick two gives you more problems than you give it credit for....

[Edmunte1]

bid_em_up, on Jul 10 2007, 02:49 PM, said:

So you duck the diamond 9 with West playing the duece of diamonds. Thats two tricks lost. Now East continues the heart Q.

Now what?

Now i discard club on ♥Q, and i'll manage to ruff diamond in dummy

"P.S. I also think that covering the club at trick two gives you more problems than you give it credit for...."

No, i'll just play for now trumps from dummy and cash ♣J later going back to similar studied position.

[bid_em_up]

Edmunte1, on Jul 10 2007, 03:05 PM, said:

bid_em_up, on Jul 10 2007, 02:49 PM, said:

So you duck the diamond 9 with West playing the duece of diamonds. Thats two tricks lost. Now East continues the heart Q.

Now what?

Now i discard club on ♥Q, and i'll manage to ruff diamond in dummy

"P.S. I also think that covering the club at trick two gives you more problems than you give it credit for...."

No, i'll just play for now trumps from dummy and cash ♣J later going back to similar studied position.

So you discard a club on the heart Q. That is three tricks lost.

East now continues with another heart, promoting the setting trick (in trumps) for the defense. Care to try something else?

[Edmunte1]

bid_em_up, on Jul 10 2007, 03:25 PM, said:

East now continues with another heart, promoting the setting trick (in trumps) for the defense.

No, pls follow my advice for skorchev

[jtfanclub]

bid_em_up, on Jul 10 2007, 03:25 PM, said:

So you discard a club on the heart Q. That is three tricks lost.

East now continues with another heart, promoting the setting trick (in trumps) for the defense. Care to try something else?

No, I think this works.

Trick 1: Heart to Ace.
Trick 2: Club Jack around
Trick 3: Club Queen to King and Ace.
Trick 4: Spade to Ace
Trick 5: Diamond ducked
Trick 6: Queen of Hearts, ducked.
Trick 7: Small heart (not the J), ruffed high.

Let's assume that West discarded clubs on both.

---

Looks like 1 high trump, then two diamonds, then ruff a small club, ruff a small diamond, and the high trump.

Let's assume West discarded at least one diamond.

Now two high trumps, then two diamonds, then ruff a small club, then cash the last diamond.

Looks like it makes either way.

[skorchev]

Edmunte1, on Jul 10 2007, 06:36 PM, said:

skorchev, on Jul 10 2007, 08:00 AM, said:

2.1) When you play the last heart West ruff, draw diamond and play diamond and East overruffs. Defence makes 1♦+♠A+2 ruffs;
2.2.1) I can't understand your idea, but after ducking of ♦ East play hearts and you will go down again;
2.2.2) The "known" theme is to go down.

I spend about 40-50 minutes analysing this board and I think there is no way to make 4♠ with excellent defence.

Please take a pack of cards and test it. I'm willing to take any bets on this one

I got some paper, it works better. I'm also up for any bets.
Now if it isn't problem please write some declarer play against the best defence where you make 4♠ for sure, because it's a mess now. And when you write it I'll come and try my best to improve the defence!

P.S. Maybe I'll come to Mamaia's festival, so one bet for a drink is ok!

[skorchev]

jtfanclub, on Jul 10 2007, 10:43 PM, said:

bid_em_up, on Jul 10 2007, 03:25 PM, said:

So you discard a club on the heart Q.  That is three tricks lost.

East now continues with another heart, promoting the setting trick (in trumps) for the defense.  Care to try something else?

No, I think this works.

Trick 1: Heart to Ace.
Trick 2: Club Jack around
Trick 3: Club Queen to King and Ace.
Trick 4: Spade to Ace
Trick 5: Diamond ducked
Trick 6: Queen of Hearts, ducked.
Trick 7: Small heart (not the J), ruffed high.

Let's assume that West discarded clubs on both.

---

Looks like 1 high trump, then two diamonds, then ruff a small club, ruff a small diamond, and the high trump.

Let's assume West discarded at least one diamond.

Now two high trumps, then two diamonds, then ruff a small club, then cash the last diamond.

Looks like it makes either way.

After Trick 4 (Spade to Ace) why defenders play ♦? East plays ♥Q.

[jtfanclub]

double post, sorry.

[jtfanclub]

skorchev, on Jul 10 2007, 03:50 PM, said:

After Trick 4 (Spade to Ace) why defenders play ♦? East plays ♥Q.

I already illustrated Edmunte's solution when trick 5 is a high heart. I was illustrating his solution when it is a diamond, and LHO played low.

[mikeh]

This is a great problem

Ok, Edmunte...

1. Win the ♥
2. ♣ Q...covered... assume we win in dummy
3. trump, won by the A
4. club back. We have to win, else LHO wins and gives a ruff
5. lead a ♦: if LHO puts in the 10, we have to win, else LHO cashes a club
6. trump to hand to remove East's 10
7 diamond up: LHO must duck else we establish by force
8. RHO is on lead with nothing but hearts and we have lost two tricks.

We hold x 1087 A x in dummy and KQx void xx x in hand with LHO holding 9 void QJ 109x

RHO leads a high heart.

We pitch a club, as does LHO
We ruff high next time and cash the ♦, ruff the club to get to our hand and ruff the ♦, but now we are in dummy with Jx of trump in our hand and LHO sitting behind us withthe 9... and we have to lead a ♥ from dummy...ooops

And it does us no good to ruff high at trick 8. We then cash a top diamond, reducing to a 4 card position, needing 3 tricks:

In dummy with x 108 void x opposite Kx void x x and LHO with 9 void Q 109.
If we exit a club, LHO plays a trump. If we exit a ♥, we have to ruff high and now ruff a diamond in dummy and the opps claim.

If we try ducking the ♣K at trick 2, they switch to diamonds. If we duck that, they play another club. We have to win in dummy in order to lead a trump. RHO wins and plays a high heart...whatever we do, I beleive we come down to the same end game with LHO's trump 9 scoring.

Ok, let's eliminate RHO's club exit:

1. ♥A
2. ♣Q covered
3. ♣J
4.♦: if LHO inserts the 10, we have to win
5. trump, won by RHO
6. ♦ back...LHO must duck, so we duck as well
7. ♥ We have to ruff high else LHO ruffs and leads a diamond
8. high trump
9. top diamond


but now we are in dummy, in a 4 card end game, needing 3 tricks with x 108 void x opposite Kx void x x. We can ruff a heart high and ruff a diamond, but we have to lose the last two tricks.

I may have missed something.... I love this hand because there are so many lines

[1eyedjack]

mikeh, on Jul 11 2007, 06:43 AM, said:

1. ♥A
2. ♣Q covered
3. ♣J

Misplayed at trick 3, I think. Yes you are down now. But not if you play a Spade up at trick 3 instead of the Club to Jack.

[1eyedjack]

mikeh, on Jul 11 2007, 06:43 AM, said:

This is a great problem

Ok, Edmunte...

1. Win the ♥
2. ♣ Q...covered... assume we win in dummy
3. trump, won by the A
4. club back. We have to win, else LHO wins and gives a ruff
5. lead a ♦: if LHO puts in the 10, we have to win, else LHO cashes a club
6. trump to hand to remove East's 10
7 diamond up: LHO must duck else we establish by force
8. RHO is on lead with nothing but hearts and we have lost two tricks.

We hold x 1087 A x in dummy and KQx void xx x in hand with LHO holding 9 void QJ 109x

RHO leads a high heart.

We pitch a club, as does LHO
We ruff high next time and cash the ♦, ruff the club to get to our hand and ruff the ♦, but now we are in dummy with Jx of trump in our hand and LHO sitting behind us withthe 9... and we have to lead a ♥ from dummy...ooops

No you got there, Mikeh. You no longer have Jx of trumps in hand at the point you quote. Ruffing the club back to hand reduces you to singleton J. That is after trick 11. You just have J of trumps and D. Ruff the D at trick 12 in dummy and LHO has to underruff the Heart at trick 13.

[Edmunte1]

mikeh, on Jul 11 2007, 12:43 AM, said:

1. Win the ♥
2. ♣ Q...covered... assume we win in dummy
3. trump, won by the A
4. club back. We have to win, else LHO wins and gives a ruff
5. lead A ♦: if LHO puts in the 10, we have to win, else LHO cashes a club
6. trump to hand to remove East's 10
7 diamond up: LHO must duck else we establish by force
8. RHO is on lead with nothing but hearts and we have lost two tricks.

5. Cash one round of trumps (as i posted before when i wrote it first time in 2.1 i jumped over this step)
6. lead a ♦: if LHO puts in the 10, we have to win, else LHO cashes a club (i reverted steps 5-6)
7. Play trump to ♠Q, removing opps trumps
8. play diamond and let it ride to 9♦ (second trick lost)
9. East plays ♥ and you discard club. This is the ending:

---

Your 10th trick will be ♥10

[skorchev]

Edmunte1, on Jul 11 2007, 08:55 AM, said:

mikeh, on Jul 11 2007, 12:43 AM, said:

1. Win the ♥
2. ♣ Q...covered... assume we win in dummy
3. trump, won by the A
4. club back. We have to win, else LHO wins and gives a ruff
5. lead A ♦: if LHO puts in the 10, we have to win, else LHO cashes a club
6. trump to hand to remove East's 10
7 diamond up: LHO must duck else we establish by force
8. RHO is on lead with nothing but hearts and we have lost two tricks.

5. Cash one round of trumps (as i posted before when i wrote it first time in 2.1 i jumped over this step)
6. lead a ♦: if LHO puts in the 10, we have to win, else LHO cashes a club (i reverted steps 5-6)
7. Play trump to ♠Q, removing opps trumps
8. play diamond and let it ride to 9♦ (second trick lost)
9. East plays ♥ and you discard club. This is the ending:

---

Your 10th trick will be ♥10

6. Lead a ♦: LHO plays SMALL DIAMOND

Try to make it now ...

[Edmunte1]

The final will be:

---

a) East returns Q♥, i'll discard club, ruff high next heart, and play ♦A-♦, club ruff , diamond ruff, West will underuff 13th trick
East returns ♦, cash ♦A-K, and play ♥ ruffed high, diamond ruff and ... club to West, and taking last 2 trump tricks

[bid_em_up]

1. Win the ♥
2. ♣ Q...covered... assume we win in dummy
3. trump, won by the A.

What do you do if East now plays the diamond 9?

If west plays small?

If west overtakes with the 10?

(You may have explained this already, I don't remember now...)

[Halo]

Some fantastic analysis on this post.

A while ago we discussed some Ottlik entry shifting - and here so far we have had a genuine backwash squeeze ending and some shape shifting to get cross ruffs.

I refuse to enter this into a computer (or even to spend 3 hours on it instead). Time for the poster to tell us the answer!