[MFA]

Scoring: IMP

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1♦ - (5♣) - ?

System is 12-14NT, 5c majors, 1♣ on 44m, 1♦: 4+ or 4432.

EDIT: the second 7♦ in the poll was meant to be 7♣.

[655321]

6♣.

6♣ feels like an overbid at first, but it gives partner a chance to bid 7♦ and if he does we probably have the right cards for him.

X will almost always be passed, may be right but surely we often make slam.

With the club void, 5♦ is not enough diamonds. It would be nice if our trumps were better than Kxxx, but we can't have everything. And if we are going to force to slam, we might as well show our void along the way.

[benlessard]

5D and 5M are NF to play

using 5Nt as pick-a-slam


5Nt is PAS (are your D long ?)
----6C (no)
---------------6D FORCING = both M please pick ur best M
---------------6H = to play H + D tol
---------------6S = S + D tol


----6D (yes)
----------pass = ive got D tol
----------6H = ive got both M and no D
----------6S = Solid spades thinking about 7 and wanting to know about D quality

----6H = both M im thinking about 7M
----6S = i want to play 7M

So responder has to bid 6C with all hands that think about 7 in wich he doesnt care about the quality of diamonds.

So 6C is my bid.

Thinking about 7 always show 2 keyc+ C void or 3 keycards.

[jdonn]

I just bid 5♦. My trumps are very bad and that scares me, especially when the breaks are sure to be awful. Maybe I'm too low if partner has AQJxxx of diamonds, but honestly if you bid 5♦ on this hand would you even be that surprised if LHO doubled? And if he was right?

Edit: I didn't see it's a weak notrump system. That's a huge difference since a weak notrump is exactly the hand I feared. I guess I could go for 6♣ now.

[maggieb]

I like 5N, since it avoids the potential 4-3 diamond fit, and sometimes we'll get to the 5-4 spade fit when partner has 4♠/4♦. I think I would just give up on the grand slam since, IMO, 6♣ is an overbid.

[Phil]

maggieb, on Nov 12 2009, 08:02 PM, said:

I like 5N, since it avoids the potential 4-3 diamond fit, and sometimes we'll get to the 5-4 spade fit when partner has 4♠/4♦. I think I would just give up on the grand slam since, IMO, 6♣ is an overbid.

Agree with this. I think we are kidding ourselves if 6c shows 1st round control or if partner can bid 7 with any degree of confidence so we might as well get to the right strain.

[655321]

Phil, on Nov 12 2009, 08:30 PM, said:

I think we are kidding ourselves if 6c shows 1st round control

What do you think 6♣ shows?

[jdonn]

I just don't see how 5NT helps find a major when it's right. Unless partner is 4-4 in the majors he will always bid 6♦ because if he bids a major the choice might have been between diamonds and the other major.

I really didn't get the comment that 5NT would help us find a 5-4 spade fit instead of a 4-4 diamond fit. Unless partner is 4441, when is he going to bypass diamonds on those hands?

[maggieb]

jdonn, on Nov 12 2009, 08:35 PM, said:

I just don't see how 5NT helps find a major when it's right. Unless partner is 4-4 in the majors he will always bid 6♦ because if he bids a major the choice might have been between diamonds and the other major.

I really didn't get the comment that 5NT would help us find a 5-4 spade fit instead of a 4-4 diamond fit. Unless partner is 4441, when is he going to bypass diamonds on those hands?

KQJx AJx Axxx xx

1♦ - (5♣) - 5N
6♣ - 6♦
?

To me, if partner wanted to play 6♦ opposite ♦Axxx he wouldnt have bid this way. I think typical shapes for partner would be something like 5530, (64)30, or (54)40 with bad diamonds.

[benlessard]

I doubt you can use PAS to avoid 6D when opener has only 3 diamonds.

The reason is that hand where responder has both M and no D tol are way more frequent than those where opener is 4432.

So

1D----(5C)-----5Nt-----(P)
6C-----(P)------6D

should show both majors otherwise how do you show them ?

6C doesnt show a first round control by the way. Otherwise what do you do with a huge hand ?

[655321]

benlessard, on Nov 13 2009, 12:57 AM, said:

6C doesnt show a first round control by the way. Otherwise what do you do with a huge hand ?

It shows first round control to me, with a 'huge hand' lacking first round club control responder can bid 6♦. This 6 level auction is not analogous to the one where an opponent overcalls 3♣ over 1M and responder bids 4♣ to show a good raise, but saying nothing about a club control.

[MFA]

I don't like the idea of automatically bidding 6♣ on the way to 6♦, just in case.

If we are seriously considering 5♦, then we can't suddenly bid 6♣ - a grand slam try. There is no room between 6♣ and 6♦, so partner has to decide right there. Very different from a 1♠-5♣-6♣ sequence, where 6♣ sensibly can be pretty wide range.

Here we have to accept a great part of the responsibility of getting the quantitative evaluation right. We can only bid 6♣ when our hand really merits a grand slam try, and it doesn't if we were just about to bid 5♦. If we feel just a little too strong for 5♦, then we bid 6♦ and hope for a good catch, instead of inducing partner to bidding too high with that same good dummy. 6♦ is not so flexible for grand slam, but 6 takes precedence and we are fooling ourselves if we think that a very wide ranged 6♣ will get us better results.

Of course, if we think this hand simply merits a 6♣ bid, then it's a different story. Then we go ahead and bid 6♣ ofc.

[P_Marlowe]

6D.

Maybe we have 7, maybe we dont, I wont find out.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Phil]

655321, on Nov 12 2009, 08:34 PM, said:

Phil, on Nov 12 2009, 08:30 PM, said:

I think we are kidding ourselves if 6c shows 1st round control

What do you think 6♣ shows?

A really good raise to 6♦. (?).

[Fluffy]

I don't think 6♣ is any stronger than 6♦, 6♣ jus tpoints the void in case you are raising it.

[jdonn]

maggieb, on Nov 12 2009, 09:05 PM, said:

jdonn, on Nov 12 2009, 08:35 PM, said:

I just don't see how 5NT helps find a major when it's right. Unless partner is 4-4 in the majors he will always bid 6♦ because if he bids a major the choice might have been between diamonds and the other major.

I really didn't get the comment that 5NT would help us find a 5-4 spade fit instead of a 4-4 diamond fit. Unless partner is 4441, when is he going to bypass diamonds on those hands?

KQJx AJx Axxx xx

1♦ - (5♣) - 5N
6♣ - 6♦
?

To me, if partner wanted to play 6♦ opposite ♦Axxx he wouldnt have bid this way. I think typical shapes for partner would be something like 5530, (64)30, or (54)40 with bad diamonds.

6♣? Meaning what?

[dellache]

I would bid 5NT as a choice of slams. I think we need bids to decide STRAIN when opener may have 3♦ only. I don't think that having a Grand slam try in this kind a situation should be a major concern.

What should the other bids mean :
6♦ = let's play 6♦ !
6♣ = let's play preferably in a Major, with 5521, 56xx, or 4531 maybe.

Maybe it's just a partnership decision. I don't have strong feelings.

[Phil]

jdonn, on Nov 13 2009, 11:20 AM, said:

maggieb, on Nov 12 2009, 09:05 PM, said:

jdonn, on Nov 12 2009, 08:35 PM, said:

I just don't see how 5NT helps find a major when it's right. Unless partner is 4-4 in the majors he will always bid 6♦ because if he bids a major the choice might have been between diamonds and the other major.

I really didn't get the comment that 5NT would help us find a 5-4 spade fit instead of a 4-4 diamond fit. Unless partner is 4441, when is he going to bypass diamonds on those hands?

KQJx AJx Axxx xx

1♦ - (5♣) - 5N
6♣ - 6♦
?

To me, if partner wanted to play 6♦ opposite ♦Axxx he wouldnt have bid this way. I think typical shapes for partner would be something like 5530, (64)30, or (54)40 with bad diamonds.

6♣? Meaning what?

I think 6♣ means, I am interested in a grand and we have a fit somewhere - so pard also has two places to play or has a self sufficient diamond suit (we know that isn't the case here).

It makes no sense for 6♣ to volley the decision back to me. Sometime, someone has to choose a suit.

[maggieb]

Phil, on Nov 13 2009, 02:51 PM, said:

It makes no sense for 6♣ to volley the decision back to me.

1) Why? Often you just have some unspectacular balanced hand, and so 6♣ should be a default bid for this type of hands. I thought that was really clear, but I guess not.

2) What did 5N show? I was unaware that this promised diamonds. Opener shouldn't be forced to choose a strain on the spot. Basically, I think partner has the right to pass 6♦ with 5530.

[Jlall]

6C should show extras as well as a first round control. Sure you could miss grands this way when partner has everything but the first round club control, but if you bid 6C any time you have first round control partner will have a tough time bidding 7 a lot of the time since you need more for 7 than just a club void.

It makes sense to me to bid 6C only with extras and a first round control rather than have 6C be a very wide range of strengths. I think this way you will bid more good grands.