[bluecalm]

1. Opponents pass throughout

Scoring: IMP

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2. Assume you open 2♥ (or multi or anything you have for this occasion in your system) Opponents pass first round of bidding then S overcalls 3♦ if possible

Scoring: IMP

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Both are very easy slams (the goal is to reach grand in 2nd one). I am confident we would reach both being drunk on relaxed bbo game. Still two world class/elite players in established partnership missed both in one segment (they play precision so it's not like they have trouble agreeing ♦ or anything in 1st).
Hands like this make me think that superior judgement of elite players is just a myth. They just blunder much less.

Anyway, to the point. How would you bid those in your pet system ? Would you reach grand in 1st one if E's clubs were KQxx instead of KJxx ?

[lmilne]

1.  1NT
2C 2D;
3D 3H;
3S 4C;
4NT 5H;
5S 6D.

2C simple stayman, 3D nat GF, 3H/3S/4C 1st/2nd round controls, blackwood, followed by a grand slam try. East has shown both kings and both aces, so signs off. East should definitely kick over 3S (instead of 3NT), this auction doesn't seem hard.

I didn't read all of the post at first, but having seen the comment about KQxx of clubs - would definitely get there on this auction. If East doesn't bid grand after showing AAKK and partner still trying for grand, with KQxx of clubs, that would be poor judgement - he should at least bid 6♣ or something.

Second one, I wouldn't open 2♥ and I don't know what system to play over these 55/54 type bids, so I'll refrain.

You are somewhat right that being an 'expert' player (being able to beat fields filled with largely poor players, and exploit weaknesses) isn't about judgment, it's about avoided dumb things and doing the occasional creative thing the field misses. 'Elite' players, on the hand, will have much better judgment, you will find - it's a very useful skill that can be honed through thinking about the game in the right idea, and of course a ton of experience.

[hanp]

I would open Muiderberg on the second hand, partner would ask, I would show clubs and a minimum, partner would make a slam try, I would cue diamonds, partner would ask for keycards, I would show 0, then the club queen plus something extra, partner would bid the grand.

[Fluffy]

first one going a bit artificial

1NT-2♣
2♦-2♥! (2♥ forces 2♠)
2♠-3♥ (3♥ 1 spade, 4 hearts, 5-3 in the minors any longer)
3♠-4♦ (3♠ no 3NT interest)
4♥-4NT
5♥-6♦... 6♦ because there is no safety if bid 5NT asking for extra tricks since on the current lie out but with another heart you would end up in 6NT or 7♦ ugh.

Opener cannot take control because the opener's hand might still be limited. Maybe it would be better for responder to bid 4♠ instead of 4NT so the opener can take control since he knows he has the golden ♥Kx.

[ONEferBRID]

1) Drunken approach:

-- - 1NT
2C - 2D
3D - 4D ( 4 or 5 cards )
4H! - 5C ( 3rd step reply to Redwood = 2 - ♦Q )
6D

2) I can't find the stiff Diam for the grand.
If the Muiderberg's opener has the pointy suits reversed, it doesn't make.

[Trinidad]

The first one is a matter of judgement. Both hands are very nicely suited for slam due to the large amount of controls and the nice fit. Nevertheless, I would try for a slam:

-   1NT (14+ - 17-)
2♣ 2♦ Standard Stayman
3♣ 3♦ Asks minor - Both 44
3♥ 3♠ Suggests ♦ - Cue
4♥ 5♣ Kickback 2 without Q
6♦     Should have play.

The second one is really easy to bid for us:
-      2♥ Muiderberg (5♥ + 4+m, weak)
2NT 3♥ Asking - club suit, minimum hand, good suits (i.e. not much outside)

... Time for West to fall of his chair, stand up, sit down, bid 7♥ since he can count 5♣, 1♦, 5♥, ♠A + ♠ruff =13 tricks.

Rik

[Cyberyeti]

I play a weak no trump, so first one:

1D-2D(4+ cards - inverted, not denying 4M)
2N-3H (15-18 bal GF - nat)
3N-4H(15-16 not 4M - RKCB)
5D-6D(2 + Q)

Yes I've missed the grand opposite Axx, Kx, Axxx, KQxx

The second one:

2H-2N (3D)
4C-4S
4N-5C
5N-6C
7C-P

2H is weak, in our crazy style 4+ cards 0-10, 2N good and asking, 4C is 5+-5+ 6+ points, 4S KC in H (4D would have been KC in C), 4N=0, 5C QH ?, 5N yes and no side king, 6D singleton ?, 7C yes choose contract, P partner might not have JH and they might be 4-1.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

Lets see, how far I come with our fairly standard 2/1 system

#1
1NT (1) - 2C
2D - 3D (2)
3H (3) - 4D (4)
4H (5) - 4NT (6)
5H (6) - 6D (7)

(1) 15-17
(2) at least 5-4, but possibly just choice of games
(3) values and fit
(4) seeing at best 3-1 in spades bypassing 3NT is not
a real issue, showes slam interest
(5) King of hearts and a suitable hand
(6) RKCB, two without the Queen
(7) thats it, West wont be able to count to 13, so we would
not reach 7D with the different layout

#2 we would not reach 6

With kind regards
Marlowe

[kenrexford]

#1

1NT-2♣
2♦-3♦
3♥-4♣
4♥(RKCB diamonds)...

#2

If south passes the first round and then bids 3♦ the second round, hard to imagine declaring...

2♥-2NT
3♣(5-card)-(3♦)-X

[subvert]

a relay bid may solve the problem of #2；
2H 2S （2H＝H+minor，2S＝relay）
2nt 3d （2nt＝c+min，3d＝relay）
3H 3S （3H＝c single，3S＝ask control）
3nt 4d （3nt＝0 control，4d＝ask Q）
4nt 7c （4nt＝both Q）

we use nearer none pd suit as relay bid to ask minor+strenght， shortness，control and Q in turn.

[Fluffy]

I have a problem with the second one, when you say we open 2♥ is it a weak 2 in hearts or a 2 suiter?

[hanp]

Trinidad, on Jun 21 2010, 05:11 AM, said:

The second one is really easy to bid for us:
-      2♥ Muiderberg (5♥ + 4+m, weak)
2NT 3♥ Asking - club suit, minimum hand, good suits (i.e. not much outside)

... Time for West to fall of his chair, stand up, sit down, bid 7♥ since he can count 5♣, 1♦, 5♥, ♠A + ♠ruff =13 tricks.

Rik

Sometimes opener has 1-5-2-5 distribtion and the grand has no play?

[blackshoe]

1. 1♦-1♥
....1NT-2♦....balanced 12-16; GF Checkback
....3NT-4♦....maximum, <3♥, <4♠; RKCB♦
....4NT-5♣....2 keys, no Q; Spiral Scan
....5♠-5NT....♣K, ♥K, no ♠K; Scan again
....6♣-6♦.....no ♣Q

6♦ would show the ♣Q, and responder will bid 7.

2. Conflicting requirements. You want me to start with a bid outside my system, and tell you how the bidding would go in that system. Well, it wouldn't start with 2♥.

[Apollo81]

Hands like the first one may seem easy, but it's surprising how often these slams are missed even by good players. To me, it seems a routine 1NT-2♣-2♦-3♦-3♥-4♣-4♥, as Ken suggested. Responder could even bid RKC over 3♥.

[aguahombre]

Actually they got to 6♥ on the second one, with some interference while I watched. (hearts five/zero, easy make.)

the first one was 420 vs 920 if I recall.

[bluecalm]

Quote

Actually they got to 6♥ on the second one, with some interference while I watched

Yes, I described the interference in OP.
Still missing 7♣/7♥ is quite bad for pair of this caliber I think.
Missing 6♦ in first one is beyond bad. They probably had a mixed up as to meaning of 4♠ (one of them took it as ERKCB maybe ?). Very surprising from pair of this caliber.

[aguahombre]

Yeh, I still don't know what Woolsey' 4S meant, but Stewart apparently took it differently. They had had a strong club and natural 2D response. Then Stewart bid 2NT. Then after some kind of checkback they agreed on diamonds and blew it.

The ladies had a simple Strong NT sequence and made +940.

[aguahombre]

On the Muiderburg hand. Stewart had the gadget, and was even able to be first to show clubs, thereby preventing a reasonable 7C contract from the side which will be doomed to a heart rough at trick one. However, Kit just blasted to 6H! A bit strange, but if Stewart had reverse spades and diamonds, no grand makes.

the ladies did not have that toy, and East Passed (2S) X (3S) 4H --then RKC and queen ask. Stopping in 6H was a good thing because of the five-zero break ---the same break which sets 7C by West. It would be hard to blame anyone for not getting to a grand on this after a 2S opener by South.

[ONEferBRID]

OP asks:

Quote

Would you reach grand in 1st one if E's clubs were KQxx instead of KJxx ?

With my "pet system", I could find all the key cards and specifically the ♥K and ♣KQ, but I would not know if there is only a doubleton Ht and 4 cards Cl. Still I can only count to a sure 12....not holding the Cl J. And what if the Hts and Cl are 3-3 ?... again only 12 sure tricks.

The combined hcp says only small slam. Hard to find a "magic" holding.

[655321]

bluecalm, on Jun 21 2010, 04:05 AM, said:

I am confident we would reach both being drunk on relaxed bbo game. Still two world class/elite players in established  partnership missed both in one segment (they play precision so it's not like they have trouble agreeing ♦ or anything in 1st).
Hands like this make me think that superior judgement of elite players is just a myth.

bluecalm, on Jun 21 2010, 02:55 PM, said:

Still missing 7♣/7♥ is quite bad for pair of this caliber I think.
Missing 6♦ in first one is beyond bad. They probably had a mixed up as to meaning of 4♠ (one of them took it as ERKCB maybe ?). Very surprising from pair of this caliber.

Quite extreme comments, don't you think? Do you always bid to the best contract? Do you never have a bad board? Speaking for myself, if somebody were to post some of my worst boards, everyone would have to conclude that I am a beginner (perhaps my partners would agree!)

It is very easy to find a way to the best contract when you are looking at both hands. To cherrypick somebody's bad boards (everyone has bad boards), see both hands and predict that you would always infallibly reach the best contract, seems a bit odd to me.

A couple of years ago, a regular poster was having a fight with fred, so (until he was persuaded to delete his post) he went through a bunch of hands where fred and brad did not bid to the best contract. This poster, looking at both hands, unerringly bid to the best spot every time, and accompanied his auctions with a bunch of sneers about what a bad bidder fred was. Funnily enough, nobody else was persuaded.