[Hanoi5]

All red, your partner opens 2♣ in 4th seat and you hold:

♠xx
♥Qx
♦KTxxxxx
♣QT

It goes:

2♣ 2♦
2♥ 3♦
3♠ 4♦
4NT 5♣
5♦ ???

Your partner forced to game and showed hearts + spades and probably some diamonds as 4NT is KC. You mentioned you had 1 or 4 KC and partner bid 5♦, do you:

Pass?
Bid 6♦?

If your partner is a beginner does that change your decision?

How would you define Pass and 6♦ at this point? (e.g. Pass shows respect for partner, 6♦ is masterminding, etc)

[nigel_k]

Pass. Trust your partner even if they are a beginner.

Maybe if partner is a beginner and I suspect they have forgotten we are playing 1430 then I might bid one more. It seems odd that one key card is not enough for them after our negative response. But I would never do it just because I think partner might have bid badly.

[peachy]

What were the methods?
2C
2D apparently "waiting"?
2H 5c suit (any negative inference, what would 3H or 4H mean??)
3D 5+ diamonds and no 3+ hearts (any negative inference as to strength? would 3C have been double negative? what would delayed 2NT have been?)
3S 4c suit? or stopper, fishing for 3NT? No diam support, no club stopper?
4D more diamonds and no 3NT interest
4NT finally admitting to club stopper? or is it really RKC?
In the end, I bid 6D. There is no guarantee that even 5D makes if we don't know what we are doing so at least try to get a good score.

I would have supported hearts over 3S, not bid 4D. Opener knows - even if he is a beginner - that I cannot have 3 or more hearts when I did not support them last round. What would have happened then?

[whereagles]

4♦ seems like a mistake. 3NT would be more adequate.

[gwnn]

Why would you not pass Hanoi5? I don't understand. If my partner misbids, it does not make sense to make another misbid to cater to that. He will learn little by little not to misbid, me likewise, and together we will get to better and better results. Catering to his misbids is condescending and will lead to chaotic results, much like the interference of harmonic waves, sometimes constructive, sometimes destructive, it is not proper bridge, even if on average you can probably improve your scores once you notice your partner's misbidding pattern.

Also trying to cater for partner's misbids is undesirable since it will get you in trouble with the law on the best hands for it. I'm not accusing you, or anyone else here, of cheating, just that if you happen to assume partner misbid in some way and he did indeed misbid in that very way and you get a spectacular result, it will often be changed back to the less successful route.

[hrothgar]

Am I the only one who objects strenuously to the 4♦ rebid?

Partner shouldn't be opening 2♣ on some nondescript 4=5=1=3.

4♥ looks MUCH better

[P_Marlowe]

Pass.

You could have bid 3D instead of 2D, 7HCP and a 7 carder should be
enough to justify a 3D bid.

Anything else than Pass is just guessing, and if you happen to play in
an established partnership, anything else than Pass is telling p, he is
an idiot.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[P_Marlowe]

hrothgar, on Jun 23 2010, 05:28 AM, said:

Am I the only one who objects strenuously to the 4♦ rebid?

Partner shouldn't be opening 2♣ on some nondescript 4=5=1=3.

4♥ looks MUCH better

The main problem with 4H is, that you may end up in 5-2 fit,
and you have a 7 carder.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[hanp]

I don't think hrothgar is far off but I agree with 4D. Our 3D bid can be on queen-fifth, so it seems like a good idea to rebid king-seventh.

If partner wasn't interested in keycards she could have cued 5C over 4D to involve us. She didn't involve us, so I'm going to respect the sign off.

I would pass even if partner was a beginner, unless 5D was bid very slowly.

[gwnn]

[jdeegan]

hanp, on Jun 23 2010, 06:08 AM, said:

I would pass even if partner was a beginner, unless 5D was bid very slowly.

DIRECTOR!!!

[Hanoi5]

I don't understand gwnn's hanoicist comments . Why do you attack me personally?

This hand was actually played by my students, I'm just trying to prove a point (which I probably haven't). So far nobody has mentioned the word 'captaincy' and I agree Pass is the correct bid.

So far 4 people have 'voted' for Pass and 1 for 6D, the others as usual are trying to correct the previous bidding so that the problem doesn't exist. I think both players understood everything that was going on up to 5♦, the thing I'd like to know is what passing/bidding 6♦ with the given hand would 'mean' in your opinion.

[dake50]

6D hoping to beat 4H+1.

[bid_em_up]

Hanoi5, on Jun 23 2010, 07:55 AM, said:

the thing I'd like to know is what passing/bidding 6♦ with the given hand would 'mean' in your opinion.

Pass = Partner asked me a question. I answered. He signed off. I have exactly what I said I had, so the auction is over.

6♦ = "I'm an idiot.", "I think my partner is an idiot", or "Neither one of us know wtf we're doing so I'm bidding 6 just in case one of us is wrong".

[P_Marlowe]

Hanoi5, on Jun 23 2010, 06:55 AM, said:

I don't understand gwnn's hanoicist comments . Why do you attack me personally? 

This hand was actually played by my students, I'm just trying to prove a point (which I probably haven't). So far nobody has mentioned the word 'captaincy' and I agree Pass is the correct bid.

So far 4 people have 'voted' for Pass and 1 for 6D, the others as usual are trying to correct the previous bidding so that the problem doesn't exist. I think both players understood everything that was going on up to 5♦, the thing I'd like to know is what passing/bidding 6♦ with the given hand would 'mean' in your opinion.

If you want to explain, why Pass IS the bid - is it possible, that 2KCs are
missing?

The answer is yes, since for what ever reason opener choose to bid 4NT,
and after the response tried to sign of in 5D.

And this is not a question of how likely this is, the 4NT inquiry is used to
eliminate an eventual uncertainty.

Thats all.

And if it is the case, that opener was not able to make the right decision
after the 5C response, than the 4NT was wrong, and they need ot think,
what would have been the better bid.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[hrothgar]

Comment 1:

I still like 4♥ a lot better than 4♦.

You can't dodge a trump loser.

If we play in a 5-2 heart fit, I'm expecting that partner's hearts are a LOT more solid than my Diamond. I can easily see a lot of situations where we have 3+ trump losers in an eight card Diamond fit and 0 trump losers in a seven card Heart fit.

Moreover, partner is showing 9+ cards in the majors. His expected Diamond length is real feeble. I'm worried about suppressing Hearts and steering the contract towards 5m which requires 11 tricks.

Comment 2

I suspect that the main reason that folks aren't commenting on the choice of bids is that its not an interesting question.

Pass is the only reasonable choice, especailly if your playing with a beginner. (If you're playing with a beginner, you have a near obligation to bid correctly to teach said novice how hands are supposed to be bid. The score on one individual board is much less important the learning opportunity)

[hanp]

Hanoi5, on Jun 23 2010, 06:55 AM, said:

I don't understand gwnn's hanoicist comments . Why do you attack me personally? 

Perhaps because you keep posting beginner's questions in the A/E forum?

Quote

This hand was actually played by my students, I'm just trying to prove a point (which I probably haven't). So far nobody has mentioned the word 'captaincy' and I agree Pass is the correct bid.

Captaincy is a much abused word so I would avoid using it. You are right though that this is one of those situations where the word can be used.

Quote

So far 4 people have 'voted' for Pass and 1 for 6D, the others as usual are trying to correct the previous bidding so that the problem doesn't exist. I think both players understood everything that was going on up to 5♦, the thing I'd like to know is what passing/bidding 6♦ with the given hand would 'mean' in your opinion.

The others are commenting on the earlier auction because the current decision is blatantly obvious. As for 6♦, it is a terrible bid, it is so bad that if any of your students bid it they are hopeless and should give up on bridge immediately. Hope that helps.

[neilkaz]

hanp, on Jun 23 2010, 11:33 AM, said:

Hanoi5, on Jun 23 2010, 06:55 AM, said:

I don't understand gwnn's hanoicist comments . Why do you attack me personally? 

Perhaps because you keep posting beginner's questions in the A/E forum?

Quote

This hand was actually played by my students, I'm just trying to prove a point (which I probably haven't). So far nobody has mentioned the word 'captaincy' and I agree Pass is the correct bid.

Captaincy is a much abused word so I would avoid using it. You are right though that this is one of those situations where the word can be used.

Quote

So far 4 people have 'voted' for Pass and 1 for 6D, the others as usual are trying to correct the previous bidding so that the problem doesn't exist. I think both players understood everything that was going on up to 5♦, the thing I'd like to know is what passing/bidding 6♦ with the given hand would 'mean' in your opinion.

The others are commenting on the earlier auction because the current decision is blatantly obvious. As for 6♦, it is a terrible bid, it is so bad that if any of your students bid it they are hopeless and should give up on bridge immediately. Hope that helps.

Great post and 100% agreement from me.

[hanp]

hrothgar, on Jun 23 2010, 10:36 AM, said:

Comment 1:

I still like 4♥ a lot better than 4♦. 

You can't dodge a trump loser.

If we play in a 5-2 heart fit, I'm expecting that partner's hearts are a LOT more solid than my Diamond.  I can easily see a lot of situations where we have 3+ trump losers in an eight card Diamond fit and 0 trump losers in a seven card Heart fit.

Moreover, partner is showing 9+ cards in the majors.  His expected Diamond length is real feeble.  I'm worried about suppressing Hearts and steering the contract towards 5m which requires 11 tricks.

I still disagree.

Partner won't expect a great suit, we didn't bid 3D over 2C. We won't have something like AQJxxx.

Also, partner is unlikely to have 4-5-1-3 distribution because with that shape he would bid 3NT over 3D. If partner has 4-6-1-2, he'll bid 4H and we can pass.

If partner has a 4-5-2-2 shape (it's possible you know) then we may have a diamond slam, even if we have a trump loser. Give partner AKxx AKxxx Ax Ax and 6D iss excellent, and we won't get there unless we bid 4D now.

While I think that 4H is right in terms of heart support, I think it doesn't do justice to the diamond suit.

But I agree with you that this question is more interesting than the original question.

[Hanoi5]

neilkaz, on Jun 23 2010, 12:35 PM, said:

hanp, on Jun 23 2010, 11:33 AM, said:

Hanoi5, on Jun 23 2010, 06:55 AM, said:

I don't understand gwnn's hanoicist comments . Why do you attack me personally? 

Perhaps because you keep posting beginner's questions in the A/E forum?

Quote

This hand was actually played by my students, I'm just trying to prove a point (which I probably haven't). So far nobody has mentioned the word 'captaincy' and I agree Pass is the correct bid.

Captaincy is a much abused word so I would avoid using it. You are right though that this is one of those situations where the word can be used.

Quote

So far 4 people have 'voted' for Pass and 1 for 6D, the others as usual are trying to correct the previous bidding so that the problem doesn't exist. I think both players understood everything that was going on up to 5♦, the thing I'd like to know is what passing/bidding 6♦ with the given hand would 'mean' in your opinion.

The others are commenting on the earlier auction because the current decision is blatantly obvious. As for 6♦, it is a terrible bid, it is so bad that if any of your students bid it they are hopeless and should give up on bridge immediately. Hope that helps.

Great post and 100% agreement from me.

I disagree with the content and specially with the form of the last statement. There are many reasons why someone would stop playing bridge and I think this hand is not one of them. The comment, if said directly to the person who made the mistake, would certainly make that person feel VERY bad. Have you ever had a bad day? Have you ever let your impulse take over your reason in a bridge hand, match, tournament? Have you stopped playing bridge because of that?