[jkdood]

Well, ESP has it's supporters and doubters:

"Most ESP claims do not get tested, but parapsychologists have attempted to verify the existence of ESP under controlled conditions. Some, like Charles Tart, Dean Radin, Gary Schwartz, and Raymond Moody, claim success; others, such as Susan J. Blackmore, Richard Wiseman, and Chris French claim that years of trying to find experimental proof of ESP have failed to turn up any proof of indisputable, repeatable psychic powers.

Defenders of psi claim that the ganzfeld experiments, the CIA's remote viewing experiments, and attempts to influence randomizers at Princeton Engineering Anomalies Research have produced evidence of ESP. (Please follow the links for more details and criticisms of those experiments.) Psychologists who have thoroughly investigated parapsychological studies, like Jim Alcock (1990, 2003), Ray Hyman (1989), David Marks (2000), and Susan Blackmore (1980, 1995), have concluded that where positive results have been found, the work was fraught with questionable assumptions, lack of randomization, serious problems with controls (no use of control groups or controls of any kind, irrelevant controls), statistical legerdemain, lack of replication, or fraud."

I personally have heard of at least a couple of anecdotal examples of ESP-type claims being made regarding "insightful" bridge players, or plays. Is it at all possible that some of the top-ranking masterpoint holders in certain regions (such as New England) from time to time get an ESP "table feel", and act accordingly?

Just assuming you accept the existence of this phenomenon, here's a question:
If a bridge (or even a poker) player uses it in competition, should it be considered AI, or UI or cheating?

[Hanoi5]

I think it would be UI but I don't think it can be proved.

[jillybean]

Table feel is AI and probably develops over many years , if you are lucky enough to ESTP (Extrasensory Table Perception) early on, lucky you. I think it is still AI

[Gerben42]

No it's not UI. And if it would work, we would be hearing more about it.

[aguahombre]

Reading people is not ESP. Some people are damned good at it. It can be learned by some people with a mind capable of learning and using it.

It is AI in poker and in bridge (when applied to opponents). It can be AM if you are wrong However, unlike in poker, it is improper to deliberately send body language with intent to deceive (or to inform partner).

This post has been edited by aguahombre: 2010-August-08, 13:58

[jkdood]

Gerben42, on Aug 8 2010, 02:44 PM, said:

No it's not UI. And if it would work, we would be hearing more about it.

IF I had it (on occasion, depending on my partner's thought process or the phase of the moon) and used it, I don't think I would tell about it...

...unless of course it was considered AI and I got brought up on C&E charges for several unusual "lucky" actions I took!

[gnasher]

This is already covered by the Laws.

Information received from partner is unauthorised. The medium is irrelevant, even if it can't be explained by science.

Information received about the location of the cards is also unauthorised, if it didn't come from the bidding, the play or the opponents. It doesn't matter whether you use ESP, tea leaves, or more traditional methods such as good hearing - the information is still extraneous.

Information obtained directly from the opponents is AI, provided that no third party is involved and provided that you don't break any specific rules about peeking, staring, etc. If you can read their minds without looking intently at them, that's perfectly legitimate.

[kfay]

Definitely cheating.

If someone tries to read my mind I will fight them.

[aguahombre]

kfay, on Aug 8 2010, 03:36 PM, said:

Definitely cheating.

If someone tries to read my mind I will fight them.

A certain So. Calif. player, many years ago, let it be known that she could get into any female opponent's head in a match. Terry decided to just think "**** yourself" at the table, and this person was owned.

I have no idea whether the vibes got thru, or it was all a coincidence. But it was fun.

[mrdct]

jillybean, on Aug 9 2010, 05:39 AM, said:

Table feel is AI ...

Nonsense. Table feel arises from tempo, mannerisms, body language, voice inflection, etc. If such table feel signals come from your opponents and you are not "looking intently" at them then these signals are AI, but any table feel signals from partner or table feel signals acquired from intently studying your opponents are UI and if knowingly and deliberately acted upon would be cheating.

[aguahombre]

mrdct, on Aug 8 2010, 05:17 PM, said:

jillybean, on Aug 9 2010, 05:39 AM, said:

Table feel is AI ...

Nonsense. Table feel arises from tempo, mannerisms, body language, voice inflection, etc. If such table feel signals come from your opponents and you are not "looking intently" at them then these signals are AI, but any table feel signals from partner or table feel signals acquired from intently studying your opponents are UI and if knowingly and deliberately acted upon would be cheating.

I am going to venture a guess that JB knew that.

[the hog]

I assume you have heard of the Manoppo twins from Indonesia. They came out with some absolutely incredible leads at times; they claimed it was because they were twins and therefor empathetic. Others claimed otherwise. Ron Klinger published an article in Asutralian Bridge called "Eeny Meeny Miney Manoppo."

[barmar]

Would you play bridge against Cal Lightman from the "Lie to Me" TV show?

[blackshoe]

Hell no.

[mrdct]

aguahombre, on Aug 9 2010, 11:15 AM, said:

mrdct, on Aug 8 2010, 05:17 PM, said:

jillybean, on Aug 9 2010, 05:39 AM, said:

Table feel is AI ...

Nonsense. Table feel arises from tempo, mannerisms, body language, voice inflection, etc. If such table feel signals come from your opponents and you are not "looking intently" at them then these signals are AI, but any table feel signals from partner or table feel signals acquired from intently studying your opponents are UI and if knowingly and deliberately acted upon would be cheating.

I am going to venture a guess that JB knew that.

That's not how I read it. Indeed, jillybean's quote finishes with:

Quote

...if you are lucky enough to ESTP (Extrasensory Table Perception) early on, lucky you. I think it is still AI

Now I don't believe in ESP as a general concept, but if that skill did exist, a player using it would be cheating if they were picking up extraneous info from their partner.

Generally, I think a lot of so called good "table feel" players are on shakey ethical ground as they are surely reading the full suite of extraneous info available at the table which will more often than not include a mix of UI and AI. Info acquired from your "Extrasensory Table Perception" will invariably include UI so if you use it you are a cheat.

[jillybean]

Yes, I was sloppy and should have stated it is AI from your opps. I don't think you can label all 'table feel' players as cheaters, it is quite possible for your opps to be making AI available while you partner gives nothing away.

[jkdood]

I know a good Flight A player that admitted with certain "good table feel" pards, they might repeat to themselves, silently, like a mantra:

"lead a club, lead a club"
or
"don't bid" "don't bid"

and very very often it worked like a charm.

Their pard might innocently get the right vibes, not even trying to, and go right.

I wonder if the "praying(preying?) mantra" person is the - uhh - bad UI-guy here?

[bid_em_up]

kfay, on Aug 8 2010, 05:36 PM, said:

Definitely cheating.

If someone tries to read my mind I will fight them.

With your psionic powers, right?

[OleBerg]

bid_em_up, on Aug 10 2010, 04:24 PM, said:

kfay, on Aug 8 2010, 05:36 PM, said:

Definitely cheating.

If someone tries to read my mind I will fight them.

With your psionic powers, right?

I would.

At top flights I'd recommend "Tower of Iron Will" that relies on the super-ego to build an unassailable haven for the brain.

[helene_t]

I sometimes have an odd feeling that p (for example) wants me to pass. I will then have to ask myself if that feeling is more likely to come from a subliminal signal from my partner, in which case it would be UI.

The only possibly relevant difference I can see between a subliminal signal and ESP is that I personally don't believe in ESP. Maybe a TD that believed in ESP and let his belief influence his decisions ought to have his license revoked. But the OP question only makes sense under the assumption that ESP is credible. Under that assumption I think ESP should be treated like a subliminal signal.