[jillybean]

V vs N - partner opens 4th seat

(P) P (P) 1♦
(1♠) X (P) 3♥
(P) 4♥ (4♠) P
(P) ?

[Phil]

I don't play this as forcing. Others might.

[nige1]

jillybean, on 2010-December-30, 18:34, said:

V vs N - partner opens 4th seat
(P) P (P) 1♦
(1♠) X (P) 3♥
(P) 4♥ (4♠) P
(P) ?

IMO, non-forcing.

[Siegmund]

Forcing with my regular p, following the nice simple "we voluntarily bid game on strength" rule.

With a random strong pickup partner, I would be on shaky ground, but might gamble on partner applying that same principle.

In general, it seems not too many folks have nice clear forcing pass agreements for these can-go-either-way situations.

[gwnn]

non forcing, it should almost never be forcing in 4♥ vs 4♠ decisions.

[kgr]

I said forcing because you did bid a vulnerable game on values.
But i think you should have clear rules with your regular partner and use them here.
(I'm still searching for a good set of rules to propose to my partner )

[wank]

definitely forcing. you've bid gamed based on strength. you're vul against not - most likely situation for you to want to bid on.

[mike777]

I would hv guessed forcing we freely bid a vul game vs nv.

[mikeh]

Good situation to discuss with partner, but I think that this should be forcing.

Suggested Metarule: we have bid a game on power...we were not pushed into it. Thus we announced ownership of the hand. This creates a fp.

Metarules, even if carefully crafted, can result in some bad results. No rules are ever going to be perfect. Once in a while we go -590. Too bad.

If S had limited himself to 4 hearts, then I can see why there is a good argument that pass is not forcing....both players have limited their strength....one is a passed hand and the other made a non-forcing, tho strong, invitational call. But S could easily hold extra heart length...maybe even a (bad) 6 card suit, and certainly a 5 card suit, with shortness is spades...such that we should be declaring, not defending.

I think that the pass by North suggests defending unless partner has extra shape. Double by North would, instead, be a command to defend, pullable only in very rare cases. Pass and pull doesn't exist here...neither player can have slam interest.

[Phil]

Just because we bid game on our own does not mean that we should have to be forced to defend a contract doubled, or play at the five level.

In Jilly's example, I pick up x, AQxx, AQTxxx, xx and the auction is the same (agree?). Do I really have to force us to play 5♥ if partner's hand is unsuitable for a double? Do I really have to double 4♠ if partners's hand is unsuitable for 5♥?

The types of hands I lose on are hands where I want partner's opinion on - perhaps something like x, AQxx, AKxxx, Qxx - where bidding 5 over five might well be right if partner has an extra heart and/or a diamond fit. This seems to be a small cross section however, where the opener doesn't have a clear idea to play or defend. And on these hand types where bidding 5 over 5 is right, I might be thinking about bidding more than 3♥. Partner also has the option of bidding something else other than 4♥, which would create a force.

So I ask those that play a force when "we voluntarily bid a game on 'power'" what kind of hand do you have in mind where this is necessary and what are you trying to gain with this agreement? Try to keep it in context of this thread if possible.

Thanks.

[655321]

Wouldn't occur to me to play pass as forcing here.

I really dislike the rule that if we voluntarily bid a vul game we are trapped into forcing passes. We took a bash at game, giving ourselves a chance at the vul game bonus, then the opponents bid on and we are forced to double them when we think they are making, or bid at the 5 level when even the 4 level was taking a risk and we will be doubled.

Makes no sense to me.

[FrancesHinden]

I admit I am surprised at all the votes for playing pass as non-forcing.
I get the impression that I play fewer passes as forcing than most people, but this one definitely would be.

I am not taking account of the vulnerability - as has been pointed out before, being vulnerable doesn't give your side more high cards automatically. However, in this auction:
- We volunteered to bid game based on values, we weren't pushed into it (so 1D 1S x 2S 3H 3S 4H 4S would not, for me, set up a forcing pass)
- The opponents are both passed hands.
- LHO passed on the first two rounds, and then decided to bid 4S on the next. If he thought he was making 4S based on a big fit and shape, he would have done something else the previous round to get partner's opinion on what to do if we bid to the 5-level (after all, if he thinks he is making at the 4-level with the minority of the HCP then we may be making a lot of tricks as well).
- LHO didn't bother making a fit bid, so it really sounds as if he jsut has a bunch of spades and nothing else. He thinks he is saving.

I find one of Phil's example hands slightly surprising: something like x AQxx AQ10xxx xx is just the sort of hand I want to make a forcing pass on, and that is roughly what the forcing pass should show: a hand that wants to bid on but is a bit light in HCP to do so unilaterally. If responder has something boring like xxx KJxx Kxxx Kx how else are you going to get to 5H?

I agree with the comment that if partner wanted to set up a force, he could have done something other than bid 4H. This is true on a lot of competitive auctions, but here the 4S bid has come somewhat as a surprise and partner probably didn't think he needed to set up a force. back to my auction 1D 1S x 2S 3H 3S... if I wanted to set up a force but not really make a slam try, I can bid 3NT (which I've agreed just sets up a forcing pass auction)

[JLOGIC]

FrancesHinden, on 2011-January-04, 12:33, said:

I admit I am surprised at all the votes for playing pass as non-forcing.
I get the impression that I play fewer passes as forcing than most people, but this one definitely would be.

Yeah totally. Might be dependent on who the opps are, if a good LHO bid this way I guess he'd rate to be walking it (or he would just never bid this way), if a random did this he probably is pretty weak and saving. Logically this cannot be passed out at the table, which is the same as saying it's a FP situation.

Quote

I am not taking account of the vulnerability - as has been pointed out before, being vulnerable doesn't give your side more high cards automatically.

True, but when they are w/r they are just much more likely to be attempting a save than a make. If they were r/w some kind of weird walking the dog would be more likely (but again I would just assume they are weak players and go accordingly). Also, LHO w/r would have opened some hand with 5 or 6 spades and shape, so I really doubt he can be walking it.

This seems to be one of those "if you use your brain it's forcing" situations.

[Fluffy]

I have seem many times RHO passing 1♠ X to see if you are going to leave it in with a powerhouse, against weak players you should not play this sequence as forcing.

[JLOGIC]

Fluffy, on 2011-January-04, 13:25, said:

I have seem many times RHO passing 1♠ X to see if you are going to leave it in with a powerhouse, against weak players you should not play this sequence as forcing.

A powerhouse from a white vs red third seat passed hand?