[Free]

paulhar, on Sep 8 2004, 04:49 PM, said:

Free, on Sep 8 2004, 03:01 AM, said:

If you REALLY want to bid safely, bid 3♥ as invitation or so.

And would anyone pass 3S if partner bid it?

Yes, otherwise it's no use to bid 3♥ anyway, unless you have slam ambition...

About all these possible hands of partner, I would open with Kxxxx-x-Axx-xxxx, so partner is weaker, but he needs a decent ♠ suit.

I still really wonder why he didn't Dbl with his singleton/void in ♥!!!

[Poky]

Free, on Sep 8 2004, 05:09 PM, said:

I still really wonder why he didn't Dbl with his singleton/void in ♥!!!

Maybe 'cause he didn't have it!

[luke warm]

whereagles, on Sep 8 2004, 03:42 PM, said:

Luke: If pard has

KTxxx
x
xxx
xxxx

don't you think he might have passed 2H for a possible +150, instead of trying for +110, which runs the risk of hearing pard bid 4S and go -50?

In the auction
p 2H p p
2S p 3H p
??
unless in your style KTxxx x Axx xxxx is a clear-cut 4S reply to the 3H cue, an immediate 4S is perhaps better than the cue.

But then again, as I said, to invite or just bid 4S is a matter of style.

i can't imagine partner passing that robust 3 count, especially with that 10

your post actually proves what i (and fluffy) said... by bidding 3h instead of 4s (or 3nt) partner can sign off in 3s to show this... with the other hypothetical ron posted, i think pard should bid 4s with that nice 3 control hand

and to answer paul, i'd pass 3s if that was his bid...

[hrothgar]

luke warm, on Sep 9 2004, 03:29 AM, said:

whereagles, on Sep 8 2004, 03:42 PM, said:

Luke: If pard has

KTxxx
x
xxx
xxxx

don't you think he might have passed 2H for a possible +150, instead of trying for +110, which runs the risk of hearing pard bid 4S and go -50?

In the auction
p 2H p p
2S p 3H p
??
unless in your style KTxxx x Axx xxxx is a clear-cut 4S reply to the 3H cue, an immediate 4S is perhaps better than the cue.

But then again, as I said, to invite or just bid 4S is a matter of style.

i can't imagine partner passing that robust 3 count, especially with that 10

your post actually proves what i (and fluffy) said... by bidding 3h instead of 4s (or 3nt) partner can sign off in 3s to show this... with the other hypothetical ron posted, i think pard should bid 4s with that nice 3 control hand

and to answer paul, i'd pass 3s if that was his bid...

Two significant points:

1. If you're balancing with a hand like

KTxxx
x
xxx
xxxx

then competent opponents are going to rip you a new arsehole. As soon as folks understand your bidding style, they're goinng to start trap passing and then doubling when you balance.

2. Advancer has an insanely strong hand. The hand is so strong that passing the 2♥ opening is verges on the criminal. Despite this, you think that partner should only invite... While this is logically consistent with your (flawed) beliefs about balancing, its not efficient use of the bidding space. Advancer's range for inviting game will become so large that the balancer won't be able to make an informed decision.

[the hog]

"rip you a new arsehole". Rofl
Best post I have read in years Richard.
Sorry Jimmy but Richard is totally correct here. Balancing on KTxxx and out is indescribably bad.

[EricK]

The_Hog, on Sep 9 2004, 02:21 AM, said:

Rofl
Best post I have read in years Richard.
Sorry Jimmy but Richard is totally correct here. Balancing on KTxxx and out is indescribably bad.

Indeed.

Balancing after 1x (P) P is completely different from balancing after 2x (P) P.

In the former case, you know that opener's partner is very weak, and can usually deduce that your partner has some points. In the latter case, opener's partner could have a strong misfitting hand, so there are no guarantees that partner has anything.

Of course, this is also why second hand should have bid 2NT on his strong hand.

Eric

[Fluffy]

You all seem to be forgetting the starting post:

Partner has no 6card suit, and has no Maximum hand with 5, so he is ultra weak, we all know it, so he is able to judge if his hand is a maximum or a minimum given his poor range.

You may not agree with this reopenings (I don´t), but they aren´t because partner is wild, they are because we are morons unnable to bid 2NT, but to pass i norder to collect penalties, so it is our fault if partner gets catched later reopening: we made the first mistake here.

[the hog]

Fluffy, you I and the dog at the gate would have bid over the opening. However I really think you are doing Jimmy a big disservice to suggest that his balance is even remotely sensible. It isn't and everyone knows it. By suggesting balancer may be ultra weak eg Kxxxx and out, you are really encouraging him to make extremely poor bids. I don't know if I could continue a partnership with anyone who thought this balance was ok.

[whereagles]

You have to draw a line somewhere. The famous mathematician Emile Borel had some studies on balancing after openings at level 1. If he was still around he could sort out whether KTxxx x xxx xxxx is statistically acceptable for a 2S bid. (I suspect not, LOL.)

[luke warm]

lightnen up a bit guys... evidently the smiley face and use of the word 'robust' and the reference to the 10 in the hand was insufficiently sarcastic.. the rest of the post was to show that an invitation via 3h wasn't the worst thing in the world..

everyone is assuming that partner won't balance unless the 2 hands can make 4S (or 3nt)... all i tried to say was, that isn't necessarily true.. and yes, i'd have bid over the 2h opening also

[the hog]

Bloody hell Jimmy. I think 3H is a slam try!!

[luke warm]

The_Hog, on Sep 9 2004, 11:48 AM, said:

Bloody hell Jimmy. I think 3H is a slam try!!

hahahaha... and it just might be, which is why if you go back to my original post i said i'd *like* to bid it, but wouldn't... too many different ways to take it unless discussed

[Free]

I used to bid with such weak hands, but I'm trying to learn not to! I've had some nice experiences with them: they open weak two, everyone passes and I bid, as it turns out my RHO has an almost GF hand! BANG, doubled down a lot for a bad score...

I've experimented with the borders of light bidding and preempting, and now I'm going back to just a little more solid I said "a little" But if your partner always bids with such weak hands, as Richard says, your opps will start to know your style and you'll get hit heavily since they know you'll end up in a doubled contract. I know this is true, since I also use it against some of my opps 1NT(11-14)-pass-pass-? and they usually bid, even when V vs NV. Then I come back with my penalty Dbl and 16 HCP

[whereagles]

Interesting you mention you're going solid now... I also used to open weak twos on junk like

JTxxx
xx
xxx
xxx

or even less(!!!). Now I'm more "conservative". The bottom line for me is

KQTxx
xx
xxx
xxx

[skorchev]

Poky, on Sep 8 2004, 06:00 AM, said:

skorchev, on Sep 8 2004, 08:06 AM, said:

Hi Poky,

I interested what mean these bids (2NT, 3♣,3♦,3♥,3♠) by your system.

Hi!

2NT = natural, invitational to 3NT
3m = probably to play (not agreed)
3♥ = spade raise, better than 3♠
3♠ = spade raise, invitational in this sequence ("bid game with max")
3NT = natural, to play

OK, ty Poky,

Then when I have no toy to understand whether my partner has a stopper ♣ I will jump to 4♠. But I'm 90% sure that 3NT is better game than 4♠.


Stefan

[Poky]

I had...

♠J98xxx
♥Kx
♦x
♣Qxxx

Should I have:
a ) Opened a weak-2?
b ) Pass 2♥ in balancing seat?
c ) Balance with Dbl?

My p bid 4♠ directly (after long hestitation) and I was doubled for -1 (careful play needed not to go -2 when ♠Q holds the trick). It was a bottom score. Lefty had 0454, almost a 2♥ opener, he he.

P.S. For Stefan. Nope, 4♠ was much better game than 3NT in this case.

[han]

Poky, on Sep 9 2004, 05:32 PM, said:

I had...

♠J98xxx
♥Kx
♦x
♣Qxxx

Should I have:
a ) Opened a weak-2?
b ) Pass 2♥ in balancing seat?
c ) Balance with Dbl?

My p bid 4♠ directly (after long hestitation) and I was doubled for -1 (careful play needed not to go -2 when ♠Q holds the trick). It was a bottom score. Lefty had 0454, almost a 2♥ opener, he he.

P.S. For Stefan. Nope, 4♠ was much better game than 3NT in this case.

a) depends on style. For me: definitely, I love 6-4 shape!

perhaps, your king is probably useless (turns out not to be, but you didn't know that). Opening 2S avoids this problem.

c) NO!!!

So imo no really bad calls by you. You seem to have a bad fit with partner, but game had some chances. The worst call imo was first pass by partner.

[skorchev]

Quote

Should I have:
a ) Opened a weak-2?
b ) Pass 2♥ in balancing seat?
c ) Balance with Dbl?

a.) NO! - I don't like opening weak 2s with 6-4 (esp. in 1st and 2nd position) and the hand isn't offensive
b.) NO! - Should try to get the score
c.) NO! - Just NOOO!


Stefan

P.S. for Poky. In this situation I say just "No luck" and continue with the next game.

[Fluffy]

Yai! I guessed it, If I Wasn´t told that you open 2♠ light nor than you tend to open I would had bid 4 liek everyone else actually , so at the table I woudl had bid 4 like everyone elses to be real.

Blame your partner, but not for bidding 4, but for passign 2♥:

2♥-2NT-p-3♥
p-3♠-p-p
p

Looks like a nice auction to me.

[whereagles]

1. I would open that a weak two. There, now they can't even double you LOL.

2. Not sure I'd have balanced this one with the heart Kx dying, but I sure would bid FOUR if pard overcalls 2NT