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What range? You have another chance...

#1 User is offline   Hanoi5 

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Posted 2011-August-25, 14:09

All white, you hold:

Kxx
Kx
AK9x
Axxx

Bidding goes:

Pa-1-Pa-1
X-???

1NT=15-17
2NT=18-19

What do you choose?

View Postwyman, on 2012-May-04, 09:48, said:

Also, he rates to not have a heart void when he leads the 3.


View Postrbforster, on 2012-May-20, 21:04, said:

Besides playing for fun, most people also like to play bridge to win


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#2 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2011-August-25, 14:17

I would rather have a redouble available to show some type of strong hand.

Anyway, I would rebid 1N. RHO's double hasn't terribly improved my hand.
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#3 User is offline   JLOGIC 

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Posted 2011-August-25, 14:49

What is the form of scoring?

1N, I toyed with pass in order to try and rightside NT (I assume I play weak NT and supp XXs) and/or rip them, but they are not vul so we are unlikely to get 200, and we are unlikely to get partner to bid NT ever anyways.

Quote

RHO's double hasn't terribly improved my hand.


Understatement of the year! :P RHOs double is quite bad for us obv. This hand is only a spotless 17 with no 5 card suit, it would become a great hand for a suit contract, but for NT it is not great and it looks like we have no suit to play so upgrading seems terribad.
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#4 User is offline   jonottawa 

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Posted 2011-August-25, 15:13

The bridge gods would have given me a T if they wanted me to upgrade. 1N
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#5 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2011-August-26, 05:25

Lets see, I have 17HCP, 1NT shows 15-17, I'll follow the system. I don't see what part of this requires an advanced/expert player's opinion.
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#6 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2011-August-26, 08:11

really a 1NT wtp?
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#7 User is offline   FrancesHinden 

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Posted 2011-August-29, 02:58

View PostFree, on 2011-August-26, 05:25, said:

Lets see, I have 17HCP, 1NT shows 15-17, I'll follow the system. I don't see what part of this requires an advanced/expert player's opinion.



Well, because 17 all in aces and kings is a much better than average 17.
I would also bid 1NT for the same reasons as Justin, it's a great hand if partner wants to play in a suit but not worth upgrading for NT purposes.

p.s if you are playing redouble as support, I suggest swapping 1NT and redouble, play 1NT as 3-card support and redouble as strong. Sometimes they go for a penalty.
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#8 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2011-August-29, 08:10

Frances, the 4321 hcp scale only undervaluates aces and kings if there's a fit or long suits. Upgrading this the hand to 18-19 is therefore a slight masterminding because you have no clue if the fit/long suit is there.
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#9 User is offline   JLOGIC 

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Posted 2011-August-29, 10:56

View PostFrancesHinden, on 2011-August-29, 02:58, said:


p.s if you are playing redouble as support, I suggest swapping 1NT and redouble, play 1NT as 3-card support and redouble as strong. Sometimes they go for a penalty.


Simple, yet excellent. Had never heard of this idea before, thanks.
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#10 User is offline   FrancesHinden 

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Posted 2011-August-29, 10:57

View Postwhereagles, on 2011-August-29, 08:10, said:

Frances, the 4321 hcp scale only undervaluates aces and kings if there's a fit or long suits. Upgrading this the hand to 18-19 is therefore a slight masterminding because you have no clue if the fit/long suit is there.



Did you read when I wrote "it's a great hand if partner wants to play in a suit but not worth upgrading for NT purposes." ?
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#11 User is offline   quiddity 

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Posted 2011-August-29, 11:03

View PostFrancesHinden, on 2011-August-29, 02:58, said:

p.s if you are playing redouble as support, I suggest swapping 1NT and redouble, play 1NT as 3-card support and redouble as strong. Sometimes they go for a penalty.


Is the 1NT support bid forcing? (Would opener redouble with a strong hand containing 3-card support)?
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#12 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2011-August-29, 11:09

Can someone think of a reason why the swap between redouble and 1NT would not work as well in a strong NT style and allow 2NT to be a tool?
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#13 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2011-August-29, 11:55

View Postaguahombre, on 2011-August-29, 11:09, said:

Can someone think of a reason why the swap between redouble and 1NT would not work as well in a strong NT style and allow 2NT to be a tool?


It works fine. 2NT is best played as a high-card raise, so that
1x pass 1y dbl
3y
can be semi-preemptive.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#14 User is offline   Gerben42 

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Posted 2011-August-29, 13:46

View PostJLOGIC, on 2011-August-29, 10:56, said:

Simple, yet excellent. Had never heard of this idea before, thanks.


:)
There is another option, you can also play Pass as showing support.
With a weak hand, just make your normal rebid. No need to give them a free run with a weak hand and you get to bid 1NT before them.
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#15 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2011-August-29, 15:13

How come when Frances mentions this idea everyone gets all excited, but when I described it nobody took a blind bit of notice?

http://www.bridgebas...__1#entry536742

http://www.bridgebas...__1#entry427089

http://groups.google...94bee19c15a3689
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#16 User is offline   paulg 

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Posted 2011-August-29, 15:26

View Postgnasher, on 2011-August-29, 15:13, said:

How come when Frances mentions this idea everyone gets all excited, but when I described it nobody took a blind bit of notice?

http://www.bridgebas...__1#entry536742

http://www.bridgebas...__1#entry427089

http://groups.google...94bee19c15a3689

I can't beat the 1998 quote, but we've been playing these methods since April 2005. We changed after seeing that Lauria and Versace swap 1NT and the support double.
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#17 User is offline   jallerton 

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Posted 2011-August-29, 16:19

View Postquiddity, on 2011-August-29, 11:03, said:

Is the 1NT support bid forcing? (Would opener redouble with a strong hand containing 3-card support)?


The support 1NT rebid is not forcing. Most commonly it is a weak NT hand (assuming you are not playing weak NT openings), but it can also be an unbalanced hand not strong enough for a reverse.

Yes, most strong hands with 3-card support will redouble, but 6430/5431 hands can choose to pattern out instead.

View Postaguahombre, on 2011-August-29, 11:09, said:

Can someone think of a reason why the swap between redouble and 1NT would not work as well in a strong NT style and allow 2NT to be a tool?


Support NTs (and support doubles, similarly) actually fit in better with strong NT systems than with weak NT openers.
When playing weak NT, one challenge for Opener when holding 15+ balanced is to show his extra strength in a competitive auction, so there's a lot to be said for using the 1NT rebid to show the strong NT type of hand.

When playing strong NT, Opener has already shown at least the strength for a minimum opening bid, so there is no need to act again to show partner you weak NT strength. Now pass/1NT can be used to deny/show 3-card support.
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#18 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2011-September-02, 05:24

View PostGerben42, on 2011-August-29, 13:46, said:

:)
There is another option, you can also play Pass as showing support.
With a weak hand, just make your normal rebid. No need to give them a free run with a weak hand and you get to bid 1NT before them.


This is underoptimal. Auctions such as

1m 1M
1NT pass

occasionally find opener with a 12-13 and responder with like a bad 6-7 and 1NT does 2 down vulnerable. If opener's RHO happens to bid, he helps you avoid this problem by giving opener the opportunity to pass his bid. Opener should therefore be able to capitalize and pass with a dead min balanced hand.
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#19 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2011-September-02, 05:26

View PostFrancesHinden, on 2011-August-29, 10:57, said:

Did you read when I wrote "it's a great hand if partner wants to play in a suit but not worth upgrading for NT purposes." ?

Well, then I misunderstood something. I thought you wanted to upgrade. What's your point exactly?
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