[Wackojack]

I know that most experts play a double of an overcall of 1NT by partner is for take-out. At present I play it for penalties with all of my partners but now 2 of them have asked me to think about playing it for take-out. (We do play Lebensohl) I know this has been discussed some years ago in the forum but I cannot find it. We play 15-17 and 14-16 no-trump respectively but I am not sure that the 1NT opening level is a factor.

Thinking aloud:

After 1NT-(2♠)- p-p-?
It would seem to me that there is virtually no upside to making a take-out double here. At worst it could be like this:

♠ K5
♥ QJ82
♦ AK87
♣ J109

♠ Q432
♥ 765
♦ 654
♣ 876
1NT-(2♠) –pass-pass
Dbl -pass-?
2♠ doubled is almost certainly going to make easily and you are a sitting duck if you try to scramble at the 3 level. OTOH after 1NT-(2♣)–p-p where 2♣ is natural, whether or not with another suit, a take-out double in this position with a doubleton club does seem to have some merit.

After 1NT-(2♠)-?

Things could still go wrong even if the hand looks good for a take out double.

♠ QJ82
♥ K5
♦ J109
♣ AK87

♠ 32
♥ A765
♦ Q542
♣ 876

1NT-(2♠) –p-p
Dbl – p-3♣
OK 2♠ doubled might well go one off but it still looks risky and 3♣ is likely 2 off. OTOH if the overcall is 2♣ where 2♣ is natural there seems to be little downside in making double for take-out and the upside is obvious.


So my questions are:
1. What does forum do in each position?
2. To what level?
3. What constraints in shape?
4. And most importantly opinions on the upside and downside of doing it?

[JLOGIC]

Sometimes bad things happen to good people. Obviously you should be more careful about making takeout doubles over 2S than 2C since you're forcing to the 3 level, this is common sense. Doing so with Kx of spades and a 14 count would be pretty dumb.

How often, as a 1N opener, have you wanted to balance with a penalty double? Your trumps are onside, and you have a 1N opener, do you really have 6 lock tricks very often? And even if you do, you're not worried about them running somewhere?

Personally I have never wanted to make a penalty double over 1N 2S p p, but I have often held a max with 2 low in their suit. Sure, there are no guarantees when you hold xx AKxx Kxx AQxx and you reopen double, just like there are never any guarantees when you choose to compete, but I find it impossible to think that it is a losing long term action. Sure partner might hold a yarborough with the exact shape where we have no 8 card fit, but he might also hold that shape with some reasonable spades and leave it in and we get a number. He might hold a 5 card suit and a little something, and we have won a partscore swing. Etc etc.

[Wackojack]

JLOGIC, on 2011-November-05, 15:18, said:

Sometimes bad things happen to good people. Obviously you should be more careful about making takeout doubles over 2S than 2C since you're forcing to the 3 level, this is common sense. Doing so with Kx of spades and a 14 count would be pretty dumb.

How often, as a 1N opener, have you wanted to balance with a penalty double? Your trumps are onside, and you have a 1N opener, do you really have 6 lock tricks very often? And even if you do, you're not worried about them running somewhere?

Personally I have never wanted to make a penalty double over 1N 2S p p, but I have often held a max with 2 low in their suit. Sure, there are no guarantees when you hold xx AKxx Kxx AQxx and you reopen double, just like there are never any guarantees when you choose to compete, but I find it impossible to think that it is a losing long term action. Sure partner might hold a yarborough with the exact shape where we have no 8 card fit, but he might also hold that shape with some reasonable spades and leave it in and we get a number. He might hold a 5 card suit and a little something, and we have won a partscore swing. Etc etc.

Thanks Justin, I am almost convinced that a take-out double is better than penalty. Although if say, most leading players told me the opposite, would my opinion sway the other way? I am not sure. You seem to be saying that you should excercise caution when thinking of making a take-out double and I suppose that is self evident. However, the more perfect the shape (and strength)you have to have in the either position before you double for take-out, the less opportunities you get for penalties when your partner does have a penalty double type hand or a part score when your partner has a less than perfect take-out hand. So it all comes down to judging how good your odds of success are. I hope my judgement is up to it.

[Cascade]

Wackojack, on 2011-November-05, 12:04, said:

♠ Q432
♥ 765
♦ 654
♣ 876

JLOGIC, on 2011-November-05, 15:18, said:

Sometimes bad things happen to good people.

Wackojack, on 2011-November-05, 19:49, said:

So it all comes down to judging how good your odds of success are.

Its easy to construct bad examples for any (or at least almost any) method.

This is not the way to analyze a situation. Its not about the worst case its about the long term odds.

Most of the time partner will have something to bid.

Most of the time that bid won't work out badly.

So the odds favour lots of good results and a few bad results from making a takeout double.

[1eyedjack]

In my opinion what opener should do in protective seat is to some extent reinforced by what responder's double means in direct seat over the overcall. Granted that having a suitable hand to protect is perhaps infrequent (whether takeout or pen), it is rather more frequent that direct seat will have a hand worth action (whether takeout or pen). In the direct seat the takeout meaning tends to outstrip the penalty in frequency terms, and that in turn influences the protective hand to playing it the same way, partly to catch partner with a penalty hand shape but which might not be able to act in direct seat.