[Vampyr]

Antrax, on 2012-January-12, 02:21, said:

Don't take this as advice, just to answer the question: my auction would be 1♣-1♠, 4♣

You don't play this as showing excellent spade support? I thought "everybody" played that.

[Antrax]

Maybe everybody is, but this is the first time I've heard about it. I'm not arguing it's a great system, but currently for us 3NT after 1S would show a strong hand with solid clubs, 3♣ would show an imbalanced hand in the 15-17 range and non-solid clubs, so that leaves 4♣ as what it is. As I said, I'm not sure where this hand is going. What strain other than clubs is viable?
(to add insult to injury, I'll just mention after 4♣, 4NT would be natural)

Also, I think another clarification is in order: I know typically people here ask questions as a way to expose how other people are dumb, but when I ask questions on this forum I always mean them as honest questions and am interested in the answer. Same goes for my answers - I don't think they're definite, they're just what I have now, and I welcome suggestions.

[PetteriLem]

I would open 1♣. I rebid: 5♣ over 1♦, 4♣ over 1♥ and 3NT over 1♠.

[gwnn]

Antrax, on 2012-January-12, 02:41, said:

Also, I think another clarification is in order: I know typically people here ask questions as a way to expose how other people are dumb, but when I ask questions on this forum I always mean them as honest questions and am interested in the answer. Same goes for my answers - I don't think they're definite, they're just what I have now, and I welcome suggestions.

I don't think you're right when it comes to this. I like your posts very much Antrax except when you're collectively accusing the forums like this (it also has a hint of holier than thou). I know that people are sarcastic here often but most often when someone asks a question, they want to know the answer, even in the cold, bitter, hostile environment of Bridge Base Forums (sorry, that was semi-sarcastic ).

About what responder should do over

2♣-2♦; 3♣:

we are still looking for a fit so you should bid a 5-card suit if you have one and failing that either bid 4♣/5♣ or 3NT. 4NT should be quantitative here.

With this hand, opener hardly wants to play any other strain, except perhaps if he finds out that partner has 6 hearts, something that we usually can't find out in time. Note that I am not a 2♣ opener, though as a general rule, if JLOGIC and I disagree, kindly disregard what I said . I would open 2♣ if my hand were a little stronger for sure. Anyway, after 1♣-1♠; ?? we are in a bit of a mess because nothing does any justice to this hand unless you want to rebid 5♣, which is still an underbid. Yuck.

About 1m-1M; 4m(same minor), our Vampire is quite right that it is generally played as 6 good cards in our minor and a 4-card fit.

I hope this helps.

[Antrax]

It does help, at least IMO (I do hope I'm not hijacking this thread). So for most everyone (SA), 1m-1M-3m is forcing?
Also: 2♣-2♦, 3♣-3NT. I'm guessing you pull to 4♣, right?

[gwnn]

no 1m-1M; 3m isn't forcing. Your description of it was quite right. 15-17 with a good minor and most often a singleton (with 16-17 ish and 6322 and a good suit it is often better to rebid 2NT instead).

1m-1M; 3NT is instead a quite good hand, but it is not usually taken as a solid suit, but rather semi-solid. It just means that you expect to make 3NT based on running your minor either with a little help from your partner or by finessing for that one missing card. You do not need to have all the other suits well stopped but you should have reasonable chances that combined with a minimum responder you have a good game. I.e. maybe you have JTx somewhere - fine, if partner brings anything, then you're OK.

Honestly I don't know much about these minor-based 2♣ auctions myself since they never seem to come up. I think, though, that 3NT does not show a strong conviction by partner that we wants to play there. So I think maybe pulling is right, but maybe not? Sorry can't be of much help here.

[JLOGIC]

Antrax, on 2012-January-12, 02:21, said:

Don't take this as advice, just to answer the question: my auction would be 1♣-1♠, 4♣
My 2♣ system sucks because there are many unclear continuations after opener's rebid. That's why I asked about that. 2♦ is obviously waiting and 2M positive, but after "waiting" and opener showing strong clubs, what am I trying to do? Is NT in the picture? Are hearts? What would responder's next bid show? Presumably 4♣ is fit and SI and 5♣ is fit and no SI, but what is 3♠ here, for instance?

Even if you played 1C 1S 4C as natural, why would that be better than opening 2C and bidding 3C? Worst case scenario you bid 4C next. Maybe your partner would have bid 3N over 3C and it's right, or maybe you have a slam and have a better chance of finding it after 2C.

Also, I don't know what the odds are of the opps never bidding when I hold this hand but I would guess that it's low. Opening 2C and bidding clubs later in competition seems better than opening 1C and having to find a way to show my values (when imo my hand cannot be this good to open 1C in the first place), as well as my long clubs.

[JLOGIC]

gwnn, on 2012-January-12, 03:52, said:

Honestly I don't know much about these minor-based 2♣ auctions myself since they never seem to come up.

Obv if no one will open 2C with a hand this good

[PetteriLem]

I dont see a real difference between 1 and 2 ♣ openings, because in both cases you are going to bid a game. You are going to get the message thru in both cases when you have bid 2nd time. After 1♣ you are going to be higher, but you gain something. You know partner's real suit and 6+hcp and partner knows more about your distribution. The opponents can enter the auction lower level, but is it a big problem?
Another issue is: have I missbid so badly, if I bid so something like this:
1♣ - 1♦
5♣ I should have long clubs and think that we can make it. Perhaps we missed 3nt now.
1♣ - 1♥
4♣ longs clubs, 3 card support and game forcing values. Maybe I am too strong hand for this.
1♣ - 1♠
3nt I dont have solid clubs and stoppers in unbid suits. Maybe I should just bid 5♣ and hope we can make it.

[Zelandakh]

I don't think there is any problem here with either 1♣ or 2♣. If this kind of hand opens 1♣ then presumably you use some kind of gadget to describe it later. For example

gwnn, on 2012-January-12, 03:52, said:

1m-1M; 3NT is instead a quite good hand, but it is not usually taken as a solid suit, but rather semi-solid. It just means that you expect to make 3NT based on running your minor either with a little help from your partner or by finessing for that one missing card. You do not need to have all the other suits well stopped but you should have reasonable chances that combined with a minimum responder you have a good game. I.e. maybe you have JTx somewhere - fine, if partner brings anything, then you're OK.

is obviously one possibility. On the other hand you could choose to play a 3NT rebid as showing a big one-suited hand, too strong for a 3 level rebid but not worth a 2♣ opening in your style.

The same goes for the auction 1m - 1M; 4m. Traditionally, in Acol land at least, this shows what Vampyr suggested, a hand with a long minor that was improved by having support for Responder's suit. I know a few people who have dropped this meaning and play it as something like a 4m preempt with opening values. There are a couple other options around too. Whichever way this is played, this hand does not seem to qualify.

Outside of such special methods I suspect the percentage bid is 2♣ because it just makes it simpler to show the power of the hand. One thing that might help with later bidding after a 2♣ opening is to use a 2♦ response as "waiting" but also a 2♥ response as a double negative. This alleviates the need for adding double negatives into the 2♦ auctions. For example, you could play bluecalm's scheme but with 2♥ as the double negative and 2NT as the heart positive. Other "tricks" that can be helpful after a 2♣ opening (in general, not on this hand) are Kokish (2♣ - 2♦; 2♥ = hearts or big balanced) and using jumps to 3M after a 2♦ response to show diamonds plus the major (ie 2♣ - 2♦; 3♦ = diamonds and no major...2♣ - 2♦; 3♥ = 4+ hearts, longer diamonds... 2♣ - 2♦; 3♠ = 4+ spades, longer diamonds).

A couple of final options. If I remember rightly Ben plays his multi 2♦ opening to include a minor 1-suiter with 9.5 tricks and 5+ controls. Not sure if this would qualify for him but it surely would be a possibility for a.n.other copying his system. And, of course, if playing a strong club/diamond system it's a no-brainer to open this 1♣/1♦ - just expect the tray to come back to you somewhere in the stratosphere...

[gwnn]

Zelandakh I'm afraid "my possibility" is more or less the same as yours. Once you start looking at what kinds of hands would consider 3NT as a good contract across a random 6-count, it will have to be a (very) strong hand.

[whereagles]

3NT comes to mind... lol.

Anyway, I'll just keep it simple and open 5C. Would open 2C in 1st/2nd seat.

[blackshoe]

27 votes for 1♣, 3 for 2♣, including one from Justin. I'm reminded of a scene from Heinlein's novel Starship Troopers. Sgt Juan (Johnny) Rico has been selected by his platoon mates to bring a petition to their new LT (the old one having 'bought the farm'). The conversation goes like this:

Sgt Rico: We took a vote. We'd like to change the name of the platoon from "Rascak's Roughnecks" to "Jelly's Jaguars".
(brevet) LT Jelal: How did the vote go?
Sgt Rico: It was unanimous.
LT Jelal: So? Fifty-two ayes, and one no. The noes have it.
<end of discussion>

[MrAce]

blackshoe, on 2012-January-12, 10:43, said:

27 votes for 1♣, 3 for 2♣, including one from Justin....

I didnt see Justin voting, is he using another name in polls ?

EDIT : Nevermind, just saw his post

[S2000magic]

MrAce, on 2012-January-12, 13:05, said:

I didnt see Justin voting, is he using another name in polls?

It's right there, next to yours . . . um . . . never mind.

[neilkaz]

2♣ for me..I have monster playing hand, I have enough tricks and I have enough defence. I don't need that much for slam assuming PD doesn't have much wasted in ♠. I am afraid that if I open 1♣ and I have to fake a reverse or otherwise, due to comp, not be able to tell PD my hand is this good.