[barmar]

Vampyr, on 2017-October-06, 11:05, said:

BBO is responsible for a crime against the English language. The use of "lead" when "led" is intended has been leaked from BBO to the wider world. I am seeing it all the time now. Perhaps it can be attributed to lead poisoning?

Examples?

[gwnn]

This dialogue:

them: "Could you please stop doing {annoying thing} X? It's bothering me"
me: "OK." <stops>

(later)
me: "Could you please stop doing X? It's bothering me"
them: "Come on, you just did it yourself!"
me: "And then you asked me to stop and I did."
them: "Hypocrite"

[Winstonm]

People who never finish what they sta

[Vampyr]

gwnn, on 2017-October-09, 10:48, said:

This dialogue:

them: "Could you please stop doing {annoying thing} X? It's bothering me"
me: "OK." <stops>

(later)
me: "Could you please stop doing X? It's bothering me"
them: "Come on, you just did it yourself!"
me: "And then you asked me to stop and I did."
them: "Hypocrite"

This reminds me of a time I was at a poker tournament in Atlantic City or Las Vegas. A guy at my table was humming loudly. I thought that he might stop, but he didn't and I eventually said,"Do you mind" and his response was "Do I mind what?", and he continued the humming. Now I think once he refused after I asked him to stop, I should have started humming more loudly. Or perhaps started not humming, but singing show tunes.

[Cyberyeti]

Vampyr, on 2017-October-09, 17:25, said:

This reminds me of a time I was at a poker tournament in Atlantic City or Las Vegas. A guy at my table was humming loudly. I thought that he might stop, but he didn't and I eventually said,"Do you mind" and his response was "Do I mind what?", and he continued the humming. Now I think once he refused after I asked him to stop, I should have started humming more loudly. Or perhaps started not humming, but singing show tunes.

Singing something like Killing in the name of - RAtM would probably be more effective, but might get you thrown out the casino.

[kenberg]

Vampyr, on 2017-October-09, 17:25, said:

This reminds me of a time I was at a poker tournament in Atlantic City or Las Vegas. A guy at my table was humming loudly. I thought that he might stop, but he didn't and I eventually said,"Do you mind" and his response was "Do I mind what?", and he continued the humming. Now I think once he refused after I asked him to stop, I should have started humming more loudly. Or perhaps started not humming, but singing show tunes.

There are people who do not realize that they are humming. Well, they tell me this and I am inclined to believe them. That does not make it less annoying.

I have learned that I must address such issues reasonably early. I can then address it with calm. This came home to me many years back. Pairs game, two boards a round. The woman on my right talked incessantly. Before we started, during the hand, between the first and second hand, and I figured it's only two boards, I can handle this. Part of the way through the second hand I was trying to work something out while she was jabbering away and I loudly said "Will you shut up". Of course she called the director to complain about my rudeness and it is true my presentation was rude. I just exploded. If I get started early I can say something like "Please don't talk during the play of the hand". Much better all around.. And then if she continues I can be the one who calls the director.

It seems to be some sort of personality disorder, they really have difficulty controlling themselves.

[barmar]

I find card snapping annoying, although not so much that I'm a dick about it. I'm pretty sure I don't do it myself (I'm more apt to toss cards onto the table rather than place them deliberately), but I've had people ask me to stop, and I can't imagine they would make it up.

[kenberg]

barmar, on 2017-October-10, 10:14, said:

I find card snapping annoying, although not so much that I'm a dick about it. I'm pretty sure I don't do it myself (I'm more apt to toss cards onto the table rather than place them deliberately), but I've had people ask me to stop, and I can't imagine they would make it up.

I would support being a dick about it. As I see it: Of course it is irritating, of course they know it is irritating. It's a losing game to try to prove that the snappers are deliberately being irritating, we cannot get insie another's head, but I find it hard to believe that they are not. Cards do not naturally snap, they have to be snapped. On the off chance that they really are not intending to be irritating then we have a conflict. Either I have to learn to tolerate it, or they have to learn not to do it. But I am not expected to learn to tolerate humming at the table, or whistling at the table, or tapping ones fingers at the table, so I think the general approach would be that I an not expected to learn to tolerate card snapping.

I do not regard this as fuss budgetry. People should not carry on extended conversations at concerts or plays. They should try to stay reasonably sober at sporting events, at least enough so that they don't puke on you. And they should not snap cards.

[barmar]

kenberg, on 2017-October-10, 13:13, said:

I would support being a dick about it. As I see it: Of course it is irritating, of course they know it is irritating. It's a losing game to try to prove that the snappers are deliberately being irritating, we cannot get insie another's head, but I find it hard to believe that they are not. Cards do not naturally snap, they have to be snapped. On the off chance that they really are not intending to be irritating then we have a conflict. Either I have to learn to tolerate it, or they have to learn not to do it. But I am not expected to learn to tolerate humming at the table, or whistling at the table, or tapping ones fingers at the table, so I think the general approach would be that I an not expected to learn to tolerate card snapping.

You can't teach an old dog new tricks, and most bridge players are old dogs. If there's a 70-year-old card snapper at the table, I don't think they're going to stop until (hopefully) natural causes put a stop to it.

[Vampyr]

barmar, on 2017-October-11, 08:07, said:

You can't teach an old dog new tricks, and most bridge players are old dogs. If there's a 70-year-old card snapper at the table, I don't think they're going to stop until (hopefully) natural causes put a stop to it.

In the worst case, unnatural causes...

[kenberg]

barmar, on 2017-October-11, 08:07, said:

You can't teach an old dog new tricks, and most bridge players are old dogs. If there's a 70-year-old card snapper at the table, I don't think they're going to stop until (hopefully) natural causes put a stop to it.

I am actually pretty determined not to write off any of my defects as due to age. I realize that I am not 30. and I realize that has consequences. But on snapping or humming os tapping the table, I would be upset if someone decided that they had to live with this bad behavior because I am 78. It has too much of a "Well what can you expect from the old fart' flavor.

[gwnn]

Are you talking about snapping the card while quitting the trick or when playing the cards in the first place?

I hate "dramatic moves" (smashing pieces or pushing them in an emphatic way) in chess at amateur level. Really disrespectful to your opponent + your move is probably not even as good as you think. (I make them in blitz/rapid in the club, but just as a joke)

[Al_U_Card]

The hardest one (for me, at least) to deal with are the foot "jigglers". That shaky foot draws your attention, breaks your concentration and just, just might be due to a nervous disorder or medical condition so asking them to stop is pretty poor form.

[gwnn]

Al_U_Card, on 2017-October-12, 06:14, said:

The hardest one (for me, at least) to deal with are the foot "jigglers". That shaky foot draws your attention, breaks your concentration and just, just might be due to a nervous disorder or medical condition so asking them to stop is pretty poor form.

In my case, it's not a nervous disorder, so if someone asks me to, I can stop for about 2 minutes.

[Cyberyeti]

gwnn, on 2017-October-12, 07:09, said:

In my case, it's not a nervous disorder, so if someone asks me to, I can stop for about 2 minutes.

Exactly the same for me

[y66]

barmar, on 2017-October-11, 08:07, said:

You can't teach an old dog new tricks, and most bridge players are old dogs. If there's a 70-year-old card snapper at the table, I don't think they're going to stop until (hopefully) natural causes put a stop to it.

I disagree. The more bad habits are ingrained, the harder it is to dislodge them but not impossible. I'm pretty sure that if you pulled back your tux jacket at the table revealing your shoulder holster and said, "I'm sorry, I have a terrible headache and the sound you're making is killing me. Please stop." age would not prevent a thoughtful response, assuming near normal hearing and cognitive function. But yeah, some judgement is required. Maybe start with please stop and if that doesn't work you can unbutton your tux.

[barmar]

kenberg, on 2017-October-11, 18:03, said:

I am actually pretty determined not to write off any of my defects as due to age. I realize that I am not 30. and I realize that has consequences. But on snapping or humming os tapping the table, I would be upset if someone decided that they had to live with this bad behavior because I am 78. It has too much of a "Well what can you expect from the old fart' flavor.

I'm not saying the defect is due to age, just the ability to get rid of it. If you've been playing the cards the same way for 50+ years, that's a really ingrained habit.

y66, on 2017-October-12, 07:48, said:

I disagree. The more bad habits are ingrained, the harder it is to dislodge them but not impossible. I'm pretty sure that if you pulled back your tux jacket at the table revealing your shoulder holster and said, "I'm sorry, I have a terrible headache and the sound you're making is killing me. Please stop." age would not prevent a thoughtful response, assuming near normal hearing and cognitive function. But yeah, some judgement is required. Maybe start with please stop and if that doesn't work you can unbutton your tux.

It will probably give some immediate relief, but I'll bet they'll be back to snapping an hour or day later.

If any of you frequent ACBL nationals, you might recall that there's a woman with severe tinitus who goes to them (although I'm not sure I saw her at the last couple). She's extremely sensitive to any loud or sharp sound, wears noise-cancelling headphones, and asks the players at her table to speak very softly, not snap the cards or even tap the Alert card on the table. Despite seeing that these things actually cause her pain (she's been known to yelp when someone calls for the director or caddy nearby), it can be hard to avoid the natural behaviors that bother her. And it's a relief to move on from her table so you can go back to your normal habits.

[barmar]

Al_U_Card, on 2017-October-12, 06:14, said:

The hardest one (for me, at least) to deal with are the foot "jigglers". That shaky foot draws your attention, breaks your concentration and just, just might be due to a nervous disorder or medical condition so asking them to stop is pretty poor form.

I used to do this often, I think I've gotten better, but I still do it occasionally.

I have a friend who's a "tapper". When he plays or quits a trick, he tends to tap his index finger on or near it. It might look like he's trying to draw extra attention to the card he played, but since he does it pretty consistently (even as declarer) there's no such implication.

[kenberg]

In the old days people used to smoke at tables. And everywhere else, for that matter. When this was no longer allowed some people gave up the game, but then it got so they would have to give up practically all activities, eating in a restaurant for example, unless they could learn to go without the cigs. So they, most of them, adjusted.

In my opinion, a simple willingness to abide by normal social expectations would solve most of these problems. Not all of them The cited case of a woman who is hypersensitive to any noise needs special consideration. I am willing to do my best to accommodate her, I accept that she has a special problem. And some people have traits that they really cannot control. Back when I was teaching there was a young man, quite a good student, who would get hyper-tense during exams. First is leg would start moving up an d down. Then he would start farting. A lot. Everyone coped, even found it a bit amusing, but if it was too disturbing I would have made arrangements for him to take the exam elsewhere. Both Becky and I find many perfumes annoying but we cope with it, at least usually. There was a student who had problems with perfume so we arranged for him to take exams in a special room at a center on campus that accommodated various issues. This led to an unusual problem. He did poorly on one of the exams and argued that there must have been some hidden source of perfume in the room he was given since surely there could be no other explanation for his poor performance. The disability services guy was inclined to go along with this. I wasn't. I won the argument by saying that if the director put it in writing that I was required to give him a make-up exam I would do so but if I was left to use my own judgement I would not do so. It is amazing ow people can insist on something until you tell them to put it in writing and sign it, and then they back down,

Snapping cards is, to me at least, an obvious breech of social norms so any objection from an opponent should prevail. As far as whether the snapping is when playing the card or quitting the trick I don't see that it particularly matters. I was thinking of when playing to the trick since that is when I have most noticed it.

I generally get along quite well at the bridge table. People usually seem pleased enough to see me, usually we exchange a few congenial words, I do not at all regard myself as a fuss budget. One gy I played with a bit was not so pleasant, and someone in frustration said "Why don't you try being like your partner? He is polite.". I mention this because my crabbing about snapping might make someone think I am looking for trouble. I am not. But it is impossible for card snappers not to know that their habit is annoying. Surely they have heard that this is so and heard it more than once. Much more than once, I would bet. It cannot be harder to quit snapping than it was for smokers to cope with the no smoking rules. They snap perhaps they don't care that it bothers their opponents, or in the case of at least some, they snap because they know very well it annoys their opponents. It is completely reasonable to expect them to stop doing so.

[gwnn]

kenberg, on 2017-October-12, 09:27, said:

Snapping cards is, to me at least, an obvious breech of social norms so any objection from an opponent should prevail. As far as whether the snapping is when playing the card or quitting the trick I don't see that it particularly matters. I was thinking of when playing to the trick since that is when I have most noticed it.

I agree it doesn't matter when they do it, I was just mostly looking for clarification. Either my opponents don't snap the cards enough, or card snapping is one of the few things I'm not irritated by.