[rhm]

 S2000magic, on 2012-April-04, 09:50, said:

Standard American, no splinters, basic RKCB.
...
(For what it's worth, the local club expert said that if opener cuebids 3♦ now, responder should assume a heart fit.)

So can you please explain what the sequence

1♣--1♥--(2♦)--4♦

is supposed to mean?

Sorry but the whole thread borders a bit on the absurd.
The term splinter at least in in its original sense meant a double jump shift in a new suit, not yet bid by either side, denoting shortness.
However, tournament players took a jump cuebid above 3NT in the suit bid by opponents as showing shortness and agreeing the last suit bid by their side long before the word splinter was even invented as a Bridge term.
Any sensible player should also make a distinction between 3♦ followed by 4♥ and bidding 4♦ directly over a 2♦ overcall.

I would refuse to play with any partner, who would not be capable at least on reflection to decipher that 4♦ must show a hand too good to bid 4♥.
Staring at a six card heart suit headed by a top honor yourself, when 4 cards were promised, and ♣Ax in partner suit, it should be simple arithmetic to get to 6♥.

The least responder should do is to bid 5♥ over 4♦, which in this context should ask to bid the slam, whenever opener has a ♠ control.

A sensible sequence:

1♣--1♥--(2♦)
4♦--5♥
5♠--6♣
6♥

Rainer Herrmann

[S2000magic]

 rhm, on 2012-April-05, 04:09, said:

So can you please explain what the sequence

1♣--1♥--(2♦)--4♦

is supposed to mean?

To the partner I had on Monday, that sequence doesn't mean anything: he would never bid 4♦ in that situation.

If your point is that this is a silly set of circumstances, I would agree if the opening bidder were an experienced player, but disagree if the opening bidder were a beginner. Please assume that he is a beginner.

 rhm, on 2012-April-05, 04:09, said:

I would refuse to play with any partner, who would not be capable at least on reflection to decipher that 4♦ must show a hand too good to bid 4♥.

That's your choice to make, of course. It's fortunate for beginning players that there are experienced players who are willing to partner with them despite their shortcomings.

This partner is quite good enough to decipher that on reflection; that's different from being able to come up with an appropriate bid on the fly, and worlds different from concluding that the jump cuebid shows a singleton, especially when we explicitly chose not to play splinters.

[mike777]

 S2000magic, on 2012-April-04, 09:50, said:

Standard American, no splinters, basic RKCB.

Opener holds:

♠ A Q 10 2
♥ A K 6 2
♦ 2
♣ K Q 9 8

Responder holds:

♠ 9 4
♥ Q 10 9 8 7 4
♦ Q 8 3
♣ A 7

The bidding starts:

1♣ - (P) - 1♥ - 2♦
?

How do you continue to 6♥?

(For what it's worth, the local club expert said that if opener cuebids 3♦ now, responder should assume a heart fit.)

4d KISS

[lalldonn]

Who's fault would it be if the hands were Axxx AKxx x KQxx and xx xxxxxx xxx Ax?

[S2000magic]

 mike777, on 2012-April-05, 11:07, said:

4d KISS

4♦ meaning . . . what, exactly? And what do you see as the continuation to 6♥?

[aguahombre]

 mike777, on 2012-April-05, 11:07, said:

4d KISS

4D doesn't keep it simple. It understates the strength of the hand in support of hearts, and asks partner to become the boss with the mistaken impression you don't have quite that much.

[S2000magic]

 lalldonn, on 2012-April-05, 11:47, said:

Who's fault would it be if the hands were Axxx AKxx x KQxx and xx xxxxxx xxx Ax?

That's a pretty good 6♥: the ♥QJ will fall 78% of the time; only 22% of the time will trumps split 3-0.

[mike777]

 aguahombre, on 2012-April-05, 12:35, said:

4D doesn't keep it simple. It understates the strength of the hand in support of hearts, and asks partner to become the boss with the mistaken impression you don't have quite that much.

I would just rkc over 4d......4d is a big hand at a minimum.


responder has extras

extra hearts and the ace of clubs...extras.

[S2000magic]

 mike777, on 2012-April-05, 13:12, said:

I would just rkc over 4d......4d is a big hand at a minimum.

responder has extras

extra hearts and the ace of clubs...extras.

If you're bidding 4NT after 4♦, why not bid 4NT directly? What will you learn by allowing responder to bid 4♥ or 4♠?

[mike777]

 S2000magic, on 2012-April-05, 13:18, said:

If you're bidding 4NT after 4♦, why not bid 4NT directly? What will you learn by allowing responder to bid 4♥ or 4♠?

not stated but if nv pard can have almost nothing, literally nothing if shortish clubs....I would pass over 4h.


I am not bidding rkc, responder is over my 4d.

to be honest thought this was a wtp deal.

[S2000magic]

 mike777, on 2012-April-05, 13:19, said:

not stated but if nv pard can have almost nothing, literally nothing if shortish clubs....I would pass over 4h.

I am not bidding rkc, responder is over my 4d.

to be honest thought this was a wtp deal.

Got it. (You switched seats there; it took me a moment to catch up.)

So, opener's 4♦ guarantees heart support?

(Remember, it's not a splinter.)

[mike777]

 S2000magic, on 2012-April-05, 13:34, said:

Got it. (You switched seats there; it took me a moment to catch up.)

So, opener's 4♦ guarantees heart support?

(Remember, it's not a splinter.)

sure and of course pard may rebid 4h and I will pass and we could have some low hcp perfect fit slam and miss it.

in any event lets discuss splinters later in the bar for next time.

[rhm]

 S2000magic, on 2012-April-05, 10:30, said:

To the partner I had on Monday, that sequence doesn't mean anything: he would never bid 4♦ in that situation.

If your point is that this is a silly set of circumstances, I would agree if the opening bidder were an experienced player, but disagree if the opening bidder were a beginner. Please assume that he is a beginner.


That's your choice to make, of course. It's fortunate for beginning players that there are experienced players who are willing to partner with them despite their shortcomings.

This partner is quite good enough to decipher that on reflection; that's different from being able to come up with an appropriate bid on the fly, and worlds different from concluding that the jump cuebid shows a singleton, especially when we explicitly chose not to play splinters.

But then this is not really a question about Bridge but about Bridge education. You should not have asked how to bid the slam, but how to teach a beginner.
While a bid may never occur to a beginner, it is a different matter whether he should be able to make sense of bids, which he is not yet capable of coming up by himself.
This is part of the game.
As I see it you have 2 choices:

Bid 4D to brighten his horizon of the game and maybe risk playing a silly contract.
If you are more interested in the outcome of the hand just Blackwood and when you hear the appropriate number of aces bid the slam.
Not very sophisticated but probably the best you can do under the given circumstances. Every additional round of bidding will only increase the chance of a disaster.
There is no point in speaking to somebody in a language he does not understand unless the purpose is to teach him the language by trial and error.

Rainer Herrmann

[S2000magic]

 rhm, on 2012-April-06, 01:59, said:

But then this is not really a question about Bridge but about Bridge education. You should not have asked how to bid the slam, but how to teach a beginner.

I respectfully disagree with you. Beginners can bid this slam without the aid of splinters, and to do so will help sharpen their "bridge thinking". What opener should have done was to consider that slam was possible even if responder had a minimum, and likely if responder had a bit more than a minimum.

 rhm, on 2012-April-06, 01:59, said:

While a bid may never occur to a beginner, it is a different matter whether he should be able to make sense of bids, which he is not yet capable of coming up by himself.
This is part of the game.

I agree wholeheartedly.

 rhm, on 2012-April-06, 01:59, said:

As I see it you have 2 choices:

Bid 4D to brighten his horizon of the game and maybe risk playing a silly contract.
If you are more interested in the outcome of the hand just Blackwood and when you hear the appropriate number of aces bid the slam.
Not very sophisticated but probably the best you can do under the given circumstances. Every additional round of bidding will only increase the chance of a disaster.
There is no point in speaking to somebody in a language he does not understand unless the purpose is to teach him the language by trial and error.

Alas, I had neither choice: partner was opener. I would agree with you that those would have been sinsible options if I had been opener and partner responder, although I'd probably have bid 3♦, then 4NT over whatever partner bid (I hope 3♥ in this case).