BBO Discussion Forums: "Average" artificial scores - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

  • 5 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • Last »
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

"Average" artificial scores

#21 User is offline   pran 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 5,344
  • Joined: 2009-September-14
  • Location:Ski, Norway

Posted 2012-April-08, 13:47

View Postkevperk, on 2012-April-08, 09:32, said:

For ACBLScore, put NP will mark the board at LATE. This way, it can be easy to find. One can go to the table at the end of game, and remove the score, allowing the table to enter the score.

This is news to me.

Not that I am likely to try it, but how do you configure your Bridgemate system so that after a Bridgemate table terminal has displayed the message "End of Round" or even "End of Session" you can reopen a previous round for that table, remove the score on a board in that round and enter a different score?
0

#22 User is offline   barmar 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Admin
  • Posts: 20,979
  • Joined: 2004-August-21
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2012-April-08, 14:02

Is this discussion of the technical details of ACBLScore and BridgeMate really appropriate here? Or is the problem that we have a Law that is difficult to implement when using these systems? Are we really suggesting changing the Law to match the technology?

#23 User is offline   blackshoe 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 17,290
  • Joined: 2006-April-17
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Rochester, NY

Posted 2012-April-08, 14:05

Why not? A lot of people think that's the way to write the Laws for Online Bridge. B-)
--------------------
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
0

#24 User is offline   pran 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 5,344
  • Joined: 2009-September-14
  • Location:Ski, Norway

Posted 2012-April-08, 15:21

View Postbarmar, on 2012-April-08, 14:02, said:

Is this discussion of the technical details of ACBLScore and BridgeMate really appropriate here? Or is the problem that we have a Law that is difficult to implement when using these systems? Are we really suggesting changing the Law to match the technology?

My question is obviously not a matter of changing the laws, but I found no better place for asking clarification on a point that was completely unknown to me.

ACBLScore is not relevant for this clarification, it is solely a question about Bridgemate and Bridgemate control software.
0

#25 User is offline   aguahombre 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 12,029
  • Joined: 2009-February-21
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:St. George, UT

Posted 2012-April-08, 15:36

Then I won't answer for BridgePad, instead of Bridgemate. On BridgePad it is easy for the TD to do any time before the final score at that table has been entered even if we are on a different round. But if someone wants to know for BridgePad, IM me.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
0

#26 User is offline   mjj29 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 576
  • Joined: 2009-July-11

Posted 2012-April-08, 16:57

View Postpran, on 2012-April-08, 13:47, said:

This is news to me.

Not that I am likely to try it, but how do you configure your Bridgemate system so that after a Bridgemate table terminal has displayed the message "End of Round" or even "End of Session" you can reopen a previous round for that table, remove the score on a board in that round and enter a different score?

Certainly in BM2s (and I believe BM1s, but I've been using BM2s recently) you just go to the TD menu and erase a score for any board - that board doesn't have to be the current or most recent round. It'll then go straight back to asking for that one score in that round.
0

#27 User is offline   gordontd 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,485
  • Joined: 2009-July-14
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London

Posted 2012-April-08, 17:12

For Bridgemate I you erase the (NP) score in Bridgemate Control Software and it goes back to the relevant round - even after the session has ended.
Gordon Rainsford
London UK
0

#28 User is offline   pran 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 5,344
  • Joined: 2009-September-14
  • Location:Ski, Norway

Posted 2012-April-08, 17:52

View Postmjj29, on 2012-April-08, 16:57, said:

Certainly in BM2s (and I believe BM1s, but I've been using BM2s recently) you just go to the TD menu and erase a score for any board - that board doesn't have to be the current or most recent round. It'll then go straight back to asking for that one score in that round.

I have only used BM1, and with them you can (using the TD key/menu) as far as I know only manipulate results on boards scheduled for the current round. And the "current round" shifts automatically to the next round as soon as "End of round" or "end of session" is displayed on the Bridgemate.
0

#29 User is offline   pran 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 5,344
  • Joined: 2009-September-14
  • Location:Ski, Norway

Posted 2012-April-08, 18:01

View Postgordontd, on 2012-April-08, 17:12, said:

For Bridgemate I you erase the (NP) score in Bridgemate Control Software and it goes back to the relevant round - even after the session has ended.


I suppose if that is possible it must include a reload of the Bridgemate terminal, i.e. removing the terminal from the server and then reconnecting it again?

But I am confused on how you can erase a score except by using "tools" and patching directly into the database tables. That is definitely not to be recommended excedpt for very experienced computer experts.

OK, I believe we are getting too far away from the purpose of this forum to continue Q & A.

And I still shall not miss "NP" whichever way that is supposed to be treated by the scoring program. Artificial adjusted scores eventually updated in the scoring program when final results exist works fine for me.
0

#30 User is offline   gordontd 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,485
  • Joined: 2009-July-14
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London

Posted 2012-April-09, 00:43

View Postpran, on 2012-April-08, 18:01, said:

But I am confused on how you can erase a score except by using "tools" and patching directly into the database tables. That is definitely not to be recommended excedpt for very experienced computer experts.

Select the score (or non-score) in Bridgemate Control Software, right-click on it, and select "Delete".
Gordon Rainsford
London UK
0

#31 User is offline   bluejak 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,686
  • Joined: 2007-August-23
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Liverpool, UK
  • Interests:Bridge Laws, Cats, Railways, Transport timetables

Posted 2012-April-09, 08:37

When you set up a session of bridge, there are an intended number of boards to be played by each pair. So if you decide to play 7 3 board rounds followed by a 2 board round for reasons of time, and there is a missing pair, some pairs will play 23 boards, and those that sit out will play 20 boards [or 21 if a pair sits out during the last curtailed round]. On each one of those boards a score is recorded in one of the following three ways, as a matter of Law:

  • the result at the table is put in as a score, or
  • an adjusted score awarded by the TD is put in instead of the result obtained at the table, or
  • an average is put in where a board scheduled to be played is not played for any reason, ie Ave, Ave+ or Ave-

Not played is used for boards that are not part of the movement. For example, in the above case, it could be set up in the computer as 8 3 board rounds, and then the final board of the session at each table could be entered as Not Played.

There have been some suggestions that where a board is to be played late Not Played is entered which will be changed later: this is obviously fine and does not affect the rules.

In my view, changing the basic Laws to include Not Played for any reason whatever in the case of a board scheduled to be played is

  • totally unnecessary, and
  • a distortion of the fairness of the scoring

Why is it a distortion? Because the scoring is based on comparing people over a set number of scores: Not played changes that, and gives anyone who gets a Not played a slight advantage if they wish to be top [or bottom] since more extreme scores are easier over fewer boards.

If you are doing well in a duplicate in a club, and that club gives Not Played to boards that cannot be played, it is to your advantage to slow down and play fewer boards.

So I suggest that the current method of giving an Average for any scheduled board that is not played is fairest and should be retained.
David Stevenson

Merseyside England UK
EBL TD
Currently at home
Visiting IBLF from time to time
<webjak666@gmail.com>
1

#32 User is offline   bluejak 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,686
  • Joined: 2007-August-23
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Liverpool, UK
  • Interests:Bridge Laws, Cats, Railways, Transport timetables

Posted 2012-April-09, 08:39

View Postpran, on 2012-April-08, 18:01, said:

I suppose if that is possible it must include a reload of the Bridgemate terminal, i.e. removing the terminal from the server and then reconnecting it again?

But I am confused on how you can erase a score except by using "tools" and patching directly into the database tables. That is definitely not to be recommended excedpt for very experienced computer experts.

Well, I can do it easily enough without using 'Tools', I am certainly not an expert!
David Stevenson

Merseyside England UK
EBL TD
Currently at home
Visiting IBLF from time to time
<webjak666@gmail.com>
0

#33 User is offline   jeffford76 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 642
  • Joined: 2007-October-30
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Redmond, WA

Posted 2012-April-09, 12:26

View Postblackshoe, on 2012-April-07, 07:14, said:

If that were what the law said, and if that were what scoring programs did, that would be fine with me. But what it means is that if the playing director misses playing a board because he was making a ruling, and if his pair's average score on the other boards of the session was say 65%, then his pair would get 65% on the board. However, that is not what the scoring program used in North America (ACBLScore) does. Instead, it treats the board as if the director's pair had never been scheduled to play the board at all. If you look at a recap sheet, the entry for this pair for this board is blank. The other contestants' scores are Neuberged, because there are fewer comparisons than on the other boards of the session. It is that to which I am objecting.


What is it you think happens to the other contestants' scores when a board is scored as "Average"? It's not any different than this - they are compared in a smaller set of comparisons, then Neuberged.
0

#34 User is offline   blackshoe 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 17,290
  • Joined: 2006-April-17
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Rochester, NY

Posted 2012-April-09, 16:38

All I know is that when I commented in correspondence with ACBL HQ that "not played" has the effect of assigning a pair their average score on the other boards in the session, I was roundly chastised for my incorrect interpretation, and told that instead the board is effectively cancelled for that pair. I don't see any legal basis for a ruling that "you didn't have time to play this board, so I'm just going to cancel it".
--------------------
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
0

#35 User is offline   aguahombre 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 12,029
  • Joined: 2009-February-21
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:St. George, UT

Posted 2012-April-09, 18:05

View Postblackshoe, on 2012-April-09, 16:38, said:

All I know is that when I commented in correspondence with ACBL HQ that "not played" has the effect of assigning a pair their average score on the other boards in the session, I was roundly chastised for my incorrect interpretation, and told that instead the board is effectively cancelled for that pair.

A distinction without a difference.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
0

#36 User is offline   blackshoe 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 17,290
  • Joined: 2006-April-17
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Rochester, NY

Posted 2012-April-09, 18:21

View Postaguahombre, on 2012-April-09, 18:05, said:

A distinction without a difference.


Not, apparently, in the opinion of whoever it was I corresponded with at HQ. B-)
--------------------
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
0

#37 User is offline   Vampyr 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,595
  • Joined: 2009-September-15
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:London

Posted 2012-April-10, 05:44

View Postaguahombre, on 2012-April-09, 18:05, said:

A distinction without a difference.


There is a difference though. Blackshoe's interpretation was that "NP" in a 24-board session gave the pair, say, 56% on that board, when in fact it leaves the pair with 56% over 23 boards. It may be very similar indeed, but it is not the same.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
0

#38 User is offline   gnasher 

  • Andy Bowles
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 11,993
  • Joined: 2007-May-03
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London, UK

Posted 2012-April-10, 05:48

When the results are published, are any of the numbers next to each pair's name different, and if so how do they differ?
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
0

#39 User is offline   jallerton 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,796
  • Joined: 2008-September-12
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2012-April-11, 15:04

View Postbluejak, on 2012-April-09, 08:37, said:

There have been some suggestions that where a board is to be played late Not Played is entered which will be changed later: this is obviously fine and does not affect the rules.

In my view, changing the basic Laws to include Not Played for any reason whatever in the case of a board scheduled to be played is

  • totally unnecessary, and
  • a distortion of the fairness of the scoring

Why is it a distortion? Because the scoring is based on comparing people over a set number of scores: Not played changes that, and gives anyone who gets a Not played a slight advantage if they wish to be top [or bottom] since more extreme scores are easier over fewer boards.


I'm not sure how many pairs would consider increasing their chances of coming bottom to be an advantage! Meanwhile, the current method of artificially awarding a 50% score on an unplayed board is a distortion because it arbitrarily makes their score closer to 50%.

View Postbluejak, on 2012-April-09, 08:37, said:

If you are doing well in a duplicate in a club, and that club gives Not Played to boards that cannot be played, it is to your advantage to slow down and play fewer boards.


If a pair is at fault for a board not being played, including through slow play, then under my plan that pair would receive a procedural penalty. A PP of 10% of a top would be the equivalent of the current concept of "average minus".
0

#40 User is offline   PeterAlan 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 581
  • Joined: 2010-May-03
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2012-April-12, 05:39

View Postpran, on 2012-April-08, 17:52, said:

I have only used BM1, and with them you can (using the TD key/menu) as far as I know only manipulate results on boards scheduled for the current round. And the "current round" shifts automatically to the next round as soon as "End of round" or "end of session" is displayed on the Bridgemate.

This is incorrect, Pran. If the Bridgemate has moved on to the next round, you can still erase a board from the previous round: move on to the point where you are prompted for the Board number to be played, insert the TD key, press 3, and you'll find you can delete the previous round's board(s). [If you've already scored a board in the current round you'll have to erase that first.] There's only a problem if you've reached End of Session.
0

  • 5 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • Last »
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users