[32519]

How do Precision players cope with the 4441 hand pattern and 16+ HCP?

After a Negative Response (1♣-1♦-?)
How does your continuation bidding structure change with the following –
1. 16-17 HCP any singleton
2. 18-19 HCP any singleton
3. 20+ HCP any singleton?

After a Positive Response
How do you convey the 4441 hand pattern to partner now? Knowing where the singleton is could mean the difference between just game or an easy slam?

[akhare]

My recommendation would be to just treat the 4441 as a balanced hand and forget that you ever read something called the "impossible negative".

Of course, you can come up with umpteen schemes if you really cared, including the really simple response:

1C - 1♠ (Various Balanced or 4441) - 1N asks:
....2C: No major
....2D: 4 hearts
....2H: 4 spades
....2S: 4441, min
....2N+: blah

Now, if you really really cared , I would bother with any of the above and simply play straight up symmetric relay responses and solve this and many other problems...

[PrecisionL]

Kathy Wei and Judi Radin's scheme appeared long ago in the book: One Club Complete (out-of-print).

Rebids [edited 5/17/12 10 pm EDT] of 1M after 1♣ - 1♦ were 4 or more of the major and forcing for one round.

Berkowitz and Cohen improved upon this scheme by having responder's follow-ons:

1♠(over 1♥) = 0-7 hcp and 4+ ♠

1NT = 0-4 hcp & 0-3♠ [edited 5//27/12 2 pm EDT]

2♣ = 5-7 hcp and 0-2 card ♥ support

2♦ = 5-7 hcp and 3-cd ♥support

2♥ = 3-5 hcp and natural with 4-cd ♥support and NO singleton/void

2♠(over 1♥) = 3-5 hcp and singleton: 1=4=4=4 and other follow-ons.

[brian_m]

Oops. Removed comment about misreads (though the "impossible negative" is in response to a strong 1♣, not a rebid by the 1♣ opener). The misread was mine.

32519, on 2012-May-16, 16:16, said:

How do Precision players cope with the 4441 hand pattern and 16+ HCP?

After a Negative Response (1♣-1♦-?)
How does your continuation bidding structure change with the following –
1. 16-17 HCP any singleton
2. 18-19 HCP any singleton
3. 20+ HCP any singleton?

I use a gadget made popular(?) by the Cambridge Univ team of the late 70s, 1♥ after a negative is a multi-way bid, showing ♥ or some balanced ranges or the 4441 shapes. Responder is forced to bid 1♠, after which 1NT = ♥, other NT = big balanced, and a suit is the suit below the singleton in a 4441 shape, 2 level = 16-19, 3 level = 20-23. etc.

32519, on 2012-May-16, 16:16, said:

After a Positive Response
How do you convey the 4441 hand pattern to partner now? Knowing where the singleton is could mean the difference between just game or an easy slam?

When you open a Precision 1♣, you're in charge of the hand after a positive. Assuming that you're using some form of asking bids, whether the Italian asks or Symmetric Relay or something else, usually no effort is made to describe opener's hand. You try to get the information you need about responder's hand for opener to set the contract. Yes, there are exceptions to this, e.g. opener may simply raise a major suit positive to game with a flat minimum 1♣ opener and appropriate trump support, but, particularly if you play some scheme of transfer positives, you try NOT to give away information about the hand which will not be dummy, and you try to make that hand the 1♣ opener.

This post has been edited by brian_m: 2012-May-17, 06:02

[chasetb]

32519, do a few searches on the internet for "Precision Club + bridge" and you can find out what people do with the positive 4441 hands. I play Super Unusual Positives over 1♣ to show a specific 4441, but 13+ HCP. If you were to put in the time, I'm sure using 1♦ as either 0-7 negative or 16+ any 4441 can easily work. As for the auction 1♣ - 1♦, 1 of a Major for me only promises a 4-card suit but is Forcing for 1 round. I have artificial responses over 1M, so partner and I know if there's a fit, and generally how big of one.

[32519]

brian_m, on 2012-May-17, 00:50, said:

I use a gadget made popular(?) by the Cambridge Univ team of the late 70s, 1♥ after a negative is a multi-way bid, showing ♥ or some balanced ranges or the 4441 shapes. Responder is forced to bid 1♠, after which 1NT = ♥, other NT = big balanced, and a suit is the suit below the singleton in a 4441 shape, 2 level = 16-19, 3 level = 20-23. etc.

Both PrecisionL and your suggestion here fit in with my bidding style. However I would like to get some more info on this method of yours.

How does the bidding continue after 1♣-1♦-1♥-1♠, when opener holds 4144 (singleton ♥)? 2♦ would be in the 16-19 HCP range and a singleton ♥ (bidding the suit below the singleton). How does responder invite game now with 6-7 HCP and now a known fit in one of the other suits? Bidding it directly could prove costly when opener has only 16-17 HCP.

[Zelandakh]

I solve this by using a non-standard 1♣ opening (15+ nat or 15+ bal (incl 4414) or 18+ any) in combination with artificial 1M rebids. So, 3-suited hands with a 5 card major and up to 17 hcp are opened 1M and those with 4-5 diamonds, no 5M and up to 17 are opened 1♦. The remaining patterns (4405 and 4414) are opened 1♣ in the 15-17 range and if partner responds 1♦ are rebid 2♣ or 1NT respectively. Transfers over the 2♣ rebid here will find any 4-4 major fit as long as Responder is not broke. After the 1NT rebid, if partner transfers then a specific transfer break is available for this hand, otherwise it is effectively handled as balanced. Weaker 4414 hands are simply opened 1NT and weaker 4405 hands are opened 2♣. I freely admit that this 2♣ opening is not a strong point of the system.

The 18+ 3-suited hands are opened 1♣ and, if partner responds 1♦, the rebid is 1♠. This is artificial and shows either an unbalanced game force or 18+ 3-suited. This puts you in a similar position to opening 2♣ in natural systems but with extra space and information already exchanged. If Responder has some values then a full Roman-style scheme can follow. Not for the faint-hearted though, there is a lot to remember here for an uncommon hand type. You could probably get by with something simpler at a pinch.

After a positive response the 18+ hands simply relay to find out what they need to about patrner's hand. The 15-17 hands usually have specific relay breaks to show their exact pattern and strength making the auctions for these hands simple.

This structure is reasonably efficient for the 3-way 1♣ opening it is designed for. I doubt it would work well in a traditional Precision context though.

[the_clown]

I either treat the hand as balanced or rebid my best suit and sell it as 5-carder. 4441 hands with 16+ HCP dont come up very often and when they do, this simple method works fine most of the time.

[brian_m]

32519, on 2012-May-18, 00:50, said:

Both PrecisionL and your suggestion here fit in with my bidding style. However I would like to get some more info on this method of yours.

How does the bidding continue after 1♣-1♦-1♥-1♠, when opener holds 4144 (singleton ♥)? 2♦ would be in the 16-19 HCP range and a singleton ♥ (bidding the suit below the singleton). How does responder invite game now with 6-7 HCP and now a known fit in one of the other suits? Bidding it directly could prove costly when opener has only 16-17 HCP.

Sorry for the delayed reply. For some reason, I didn't get an e-mail saying that you'd posted in this thread.

After the sequence showing the strong 3 suiters, responder uses a bid of the known short suit as an asking bid. Opener's responses are

1 step = minimum with a singleton
2 steps = maximum with a singleton
3 steps = minimum with a void
4 steps = maximum with a void

Yes, obviously from the above, we can include 5440 shapes in the bid - it's basically up to opener. With a good 5 card major, we tend to show that. With a weak 5 card suit or 5 cards in a minor, we'll go via the 3-suited sequence.

[PrecisionL]

32519, on 2012-May-18, 00:50, said:

Both PrecisionL and your suggestion here fit in with my bidding style. However I would like to get some more info on this method of yours.

How does the bidding continue after 1♣-1♦-1♥-1♠, when opener holds 4144 (singleton ♥)? 2♦ would be in the 16-19 HCP range and a singleton ♥ (bidding the suit below the singleton). How does responder invite game now with 6-7 HCP and now a known fit in one of the other suits? Bidding it directly could prove costly when opener has only 16-17 HCP.

1♣ - 1♦ - 1♥ = (a) 4+♥, or (b) any 20+ hcp hand

Now (following Cohen-Berkowitz scheme):

1♠ = 0-7 hcp and 4+ ♠

1NT = 0-5 hcp and 0-3♠

2♣(Artificial) = 5-7 hcp and 0-2♥

2♦(Artificial) = 5-7 hcp 3♥

2♥ = 5-7 hcp & 5♥

2♠ = 3-5 hcp and 4+ ♠

2NT (artificial) = 3-5 hcp and mini-splinter with 4+♠

3♣(artificial) Mini-Splinter with singleton ♣

etc ...

Questions are not clear, but with any 4441 hand 20+ hcp:

1♣ - 1♦ - 2♠ = ANY 4441, 20+ hcp, 2NT ASKS for the singleton

3 of a suit = Singleton in next suit and 20-23 hcp

3NT > 4♥ = Singleton in next suit and G.F.

Reference: 4441 by Opener & 16+ Berkowitz-Cohen USBF 2006 Notes: http://usbf.org/inde...id=20&Itemid=28

[robdixon87]

We have 16-23 (4441) shapes as a strong option in our multi 2♦ opener. I like this because you don't have to lie about being balanced or pretending to have a 5 card suit. The bidding does start a bit higher for these hands than opening 1♣, but you convey very exact information quickly.

Before we played multi, we played a Roman 2♦, which is simply just 16+ (4441). It didn't turn up terribly often, but was incredibly useful. I think that's part of the reason we have it in our multi now...

In either case, you can deal with the strong (4441) hands using 2♦, much better alternatives to the classical Precision 2♦!!

[32519]

robdixon87, on 2012-May-28, 17:03, said:

We have 16-23 (4441) shapes as a strong option in our multi 2♦ opener. I like this because you don't have to lie about being balanced or pretending to have a 5 card suit. The bidding does start a bit higher for these hands than opening 1♣, but you convey very exact information quickly.

Before we played multi, we played a Roman 2♦, which is simply just 16+ (4441). It didn't turn up terribly often, but was incredibly useful. I think that's part of the reason we have it in our multi now...

In either case, you can deal with the strong (4441) hands using 2♦, much better alternatives to the classical Precision 2♦!!

This is interesting. About a year ago I was playing a version of Precision called “Control Precision.” The creator is someone called Ray Bermeister from Israel. He claims that he took his system to the semi-finals in the Israeli Nationals.

He also had Multi in his system. The 4441 hands in the 11-15 HCP range were opened 1♦. The 4441 hands in the 16+ HCP range were opened 2♦ Multi. First round responses to his version of Multi weren’t standard.
2♥ = No game interest, 0-12 HCP. When opener has a weak 6-card ♥ suit, he simply passes. With a 6-card ♠ suit, he corrects to 2♠. When holding a 4441 hand, the singleton gets bid on level 3 over 2♥. Responder places the final contract.
2♠ = Game interest, 13+ HCP. I can’t remember exactly how it went after that but opener’s rebids now become messy. I think it was something like this:
1. With a weak 6-card ♥ suit, he corrects to 3♥.
2. With a 4441 hand in the 16-19 HCP range, second round bids were: 3♣-3♦-3♠ shows the singleton. 3NT shows a ♥ singleton (3♥ would be a weak 6-card suit).
3. With a 4441 hand in the 20+ HCP range, second round responses were on the 4-level and obviously either a game force (20+min=game) or slam interest (20+13=33 HCP).

I am not convinced that 2♦-2♥ as P/C is a good idea. With both opener and responder conveying a minimum hand, the opponents may just be enticed to throw a bid of their own in.

What do others think of this scheme?

[perko90]

Zelandakh, on 2012-May-18, 03:24, said:

I solve this by using a non-standard 1♣ opening (15+ nat or 15+ bal (incl 4414) or 18+ any) in combination with artificial 1M rebids. So, 3-suited hands with a 5 card major and up to 17 hcp are opened 1M and those with 4-5 diamonds, no 5M and up to 17 are opened 1♦. ...

Interesting! I'm working on a system that also opens 1♣ on the exact same hands you do. Although my 1M rebids are semi natural, but often a 4-card suit (thus, 4-4-4-1 hands aren't a problem at all). 1♥ rebid asks for a Kokish style relay to 1♠. The rest is beyond the point of this thread, but maybe I can start a new one.

[keylime]

If playing a natural five card major Precision, I'd treat the 4441 as balanced and focus on getting to the majors if you own them. They are not that bad of a problem.

[FM75]

Should there be much attention paid to this hand type in designing a system (precision or otherwise)?
I am not suggesting I know the answer, but just offer the following data to consider.

It likely arises in just under 3 hands per 1000. (So maybe you see it once or twice if you make it to the finals of the Bermuda Bowl) You might need to apply some minor corrections based on whether there is a previous opening bid.

Example: Using http://www.bridgebas...aler/dealer.php

With the following input:

generate 1000000
condition shape(north, any 4441) and hcp(north)>15 and hcp(north) <24

action frequency (control(north)+control(south), 1,12)
#action frequency (hcp(north)+hcp(south), 16, 40)

On average the deal has roughly NT, Major game level hcp, (or controls) - pick which action you want to see.

Frequency :

    1	       0
    2	       0
    3	       2
    4	      26
    5	     129
    6	     360
    7	     585
    8	     667
    9	     628
   10	     334
   11	     186
   12	      42

Generated 1000000 hands
Produced 2959 hands
Initial random seed 1342147595
Time needed 1.504 sec

[blackshoe]

Romex used to include these hands in the Mexican 2♦ opening. When the system went to two cards (Romex vul and Romex Forcing Club — similar to Precision — not vul) they put it in the 1♣ opening in RFC, using essentially the scheme described upthread by brian_m, which they called "Chikesh", as the 1♥ relay is similar to the Kokish 2♥ relay. More recently it has been dropped from the system since it comes up so rarely. More info in Godfrey's Stairway to the Stars and Godfrey's Angels, by Rosenkranz and Alder.

[SteveMoe]

Partner and I play a version of Walter Johnson's MR Lite. I understand this follows closely to what MR play with their clients (though not necessarily with each other)...

We assign the jump rebid of 2♠ by the 1♣ opener 20+ and 4441 shape. Responder bids 2N to ask for shortness or natural suits to show length (you can devise a transfer approach here if you wish). If responder bids opener's short suit, opener rebids NT cheaply with 21 or less or 24+. With 23-4 opener jumps in NT. Other auctions follow. (No asking bids by responder except RKB). With different partners I do or do not play opener's 1♥ rebid as also a kokish style puppet with large balanced hands. Requires some adjustment to follow-up bids only over a 1♥ rebid.

For weaker hands (you decide if 16-17 or 16-19) we simply respond 1M after 1♦ - following tradition that this could be a 4-card suit if unbalanced. We play responder's rebid of 2♣ as a non fit 6-7 HCP and 2♦ 3 card fit (0-7 or 6-7 HCP). When partner bids our singleton as a positive response, 3N shows 4441 with 16-17 HCP and stiff in the suit responder mentioned. 2N shows wither big 2N hands or 18-19 4441 with stiff in responder's first suit. Responder bids naturally throughout.

The major raise structure helps this to work:
1N = 0-5 0-2 M cards (and 4+ spades over opener's 1H call)
1S = 0-5 and (max 3 spades if M=♥) and max 2 M cards.
2M = 0-3 3+ M cards
3M = 4-5 Balanced 4 M cards
J/S = 4-5 HCP and singleton/void in suit mentioned 4+ M cards - mini splinter
Double J/S = 6-7 HCP and singleton/void in suit mentioned 4+ M cards - maxi splinter
2N = 6-7 HCP Balnced - Jacoby Type "forcing" raise 4+ M cards. Here we make opener's rebids epsilon (Suit Control Ask).

I you wish to assign all 18+ HCP hands to the 2♠ jump, you can adjust the bidding requirements accordingly.