[mikl_plkcc]

What does 1NT - 2♣ - 2♠ - 4NT mean? Natural or Blackwood?

If it is natural, how do I invite ♠ slam?
It if is Blackwood, how do I invite NT slam?

[Zelandakh]

Traditionally this is natural. However, if a random B/I player bids it they usually mean it as Blackwood. Some (non N/B) methods help here. Experienced pairs usually have a bid to show a good spade raise over 2♠ which can then lead them on to Blackwood. Another option would be to agree that 4♣ over 2♠ is ace-asking in spades, a form of Gerber if you like. You do miss out on the alternative meaning(s) for that bid though (eg splinter, see below).

Just a small extra point. Using Blackwood is never an invite to slam. You use Blackwood to find out if 2 aces (or key cardes) are missing when you know you want to be in slam should they not be. To invite a slam here you would do something like making a splinter bid (if agreed) or simply raising to 5♠.

[gordontd]

mikl_plkcc, on 2012-June-26, 02:06, said:

If it is natural, how do I invite ♠ slam?

One way is to play that a bid of three of the other major (1NT - 2♣ - 2♠ - 3♥ or 1NT - 2♣ - 2♥ - 3♠) is a forcing raise.

[Cyberyeti]

gordontd, on 2012-June-26, 02:18, said:

One way is to play that a bid of three of the other major (1NT - 2♣ - 2♠ - 3♥ or 1NT - 2♣ - 2♥ - 3♠) is a forcing raise.

Another way is to play 4N as quant in NT, 5♠ is quant in ♠, we use the other major after stayman as looking for a minor suit fit. We have no issue in ♥ as 1N-2♣-2♥-4♠ asks for aces, but over 1N-2♣-2♠ we play 4♥ as a slam invite agreeing spades.

[manudude03]

I like to play a 2-way 3C rebid here over a 2H response, where 1NT-2C-2H-3C is game forcing showing either clubs and 4 spades, or a balanced invite with 4 hearts. Opener bids 3D as a relay, then 3H=hearts and 3S= spades+clubs.

After 1NT-2C-2H-3C-3D-3S, 4D and 4H are cuebids agreeing spades while 4C sets clubs as trumps.

Over 1NT-2C-2S, responder can simply bid 3H as a balanced slam try with spades (opener won't have hearts).

It's not something you should do without discussion though!

ps. And yes, 4NT is quantitative after stayman.

[Zelandakh]

manudude03, on 2012-June-26, 05:37, said:

I like to play a 2-way 3C rebid here over a 2H response, where 1NT-2C-2H-3C is game forcing showing either clubs and 4 spades, or a balanced invite with 4 hearts. Opener bids 3D as a relay, then 3H=hearts and 3S= spades+clubs.

This definitely sounds like a N/B treatment, no?

[ahydra]

Quite a useful agreement to have (at least I've found) is "a new suit after stayman or transfer is game forcing". The exception being, of course, if you play "weak stayman" where you might bid e.g. 1NT-2C-2D-2H/S on a very weak hand that doesn't want to play 1NT.

So 1NT-2C-2S-4NT is a quantitative invite to 6NT, and if you want to invite a spade slam, you have to bid something else, which may mean you fake a suit with 3C or something.

ahydra

[campboy]

Certainly 4NT should be natural here, but you also need a way to agree spades and try for slam. I think the most N/B solution is to jump in a new suit as a cue-bid (agreeing spades, showing slam interest and a control in the suit bid); then you can use Blackwood on the next round if that's what you want to do.

More experienced players will want to reserve these jumps for shortages, but that creates a new problem since you may not have a shortage to show. The usual way to plug the gap is the "other major" method that Gordon suggests.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

mikl_plkcc, on 2012-June-26, 02:06, said:

What does 1NT - 2♣ - 2♠ - 4NT mean? Natural or Blackwood?

If it is natural, how do I invite ♠ slam?
It if is Blackwood, how do I invite NT slam?

Here is part of the commonly played Baze Structure ( you may look it up ) over Stayman:

1NT - 2C
2M - 4NT = Quantitative, major misfit, NT slam invite

1NT - 2C
2M - 4C! = major fit, RKC Gerber

[Mbodell]

For a B/I I'd say just play 4nt is quant, but if partner accepts have him bid 6M so you can pass/correct in case you had a fit. And if you have the values for slam and have a fit, just bid 6M.

I second the Baze recommendation for folks who want to add more conventions and that would give you all the methods you'd need (generally not B/I though). Over 1nt-2♣-2♠ you have:

3♥ - artificial, promises a spade fit, the values to at least think about slam, and shortness somewhere. Opener will bid 3♠ to ask about shortness, and responder bids 4♣ with short clubs, 4♦ with short ♦, 3nt with short ♥, over the shortness showing bids suits below game are cue bids and 4nt is now key card
4♣ - keycard for spades with fit
4♦ - quantitative invite to slam with a spade fit
4nt - quantitative invite to slam with no fit (implies 4 hearts since if you just had a quant invite with no major you'd bid 4nt over 1nt)

If the stayman response had instead been 2♥ than the responses are the same except the shortness response is 3♠ instead of 3♥ (since 3♥ over 2♥ is normal natural invitational) and now 3nt asks with 4♣ showing short clubs, 4♦ showing short diamonds, and 4♥ showing spade shortness.

[mikl_plkcc]

If I want to find a minor suit fit, I won't use Stayman but rather transfer or use 2-suited minor bids, therefore, all the new suit bid after Stayman is free.

I haven't defined what a new suit bid after a positive response of Stayman mean:

1NT-2♣-2♥-2♠/3♣/3♦
1NT-2♣-2♠-3♣/3♦/3♥

What do people normally use them for? (This is no longer a N/B problem I admit). Weak suit game try? Jump = cuebid?

[Zelandakh]

mikl_plkcc, on 2012-June-27, 22:33, said:

I haven't defined what a new suit bid after a positive response of Stayman mean:

1NT-2♣-2♥-2♠/3♣/3♦
1NT-2♣-2♠-3♣/3♦/3♥

What do people normally use them for? (This is no longer a N/B problem I admit). Weak suit game try? Jump = cuebid?

You are right that this is not really N/B and it might be better to create a new thread in I/A or GBD rather than hijacking this one. Nonetheless, since you asked, I play
1NT-2♣; 2♥
==
2♠ = range ask (this included Baron for the minors when I was playing ordinary Stayman)
2NT = puppet to 3♣ (sign off or GF)
3♣ = puppet to 3♦ (sign off or GF)
3♦ = GF heart raise
3♥ = INV heart raise
3♠, 4m = splinter

and
1NT-2♣; 2♠
==
2NT = natural invite
3♣ = puppet to 3♦ (sign off or GF)
3♦ = minor suit ask (3♥ = clubs, 3♠ = diamonds....this was Baron for the minors when I played ordinary Stayman)
3♥ = GF spade raise
3♠ = INV spade raise
4m, 4♥ = splinter

The standard meaning for a new suit after 1NT - 2♣; 2M are natural and forcing (for 3m) and a good raise of M (for bidding the other major (2♠/3♥). A jump bid depends a little on system. Without discussion I would expect a jump into a new suit here to be a splinter. Baze (mentioned earlier in the thread) is another popular alternative.

[mgoetze]

Cyberyeti, on 2012-June-26, 04:40, said:

we use the other major after stayman as looking for a minor suit fit.

Wrong forum.

manudude03, on 2012-June-26, 05:37, said:

I like to play a 2-way 3C rebid here over a 2H response,

Wrong forum.

[Fluffy]

I though that standard was that after stayman, new suits at the 3 level are game forcing and promise 5 cards at least denying fit in the major.

[Cyberyeti]

Quote

we use the other major after stayman as looking for a minor suit fit.

mgoetze, on 2012-June-28, 01:38, said:

Wrong forum.

I've played this as artificial since I was a complete beginner, I saw no point in 1N-2♣-2♥-2♠ showing spades although you may have them, playing promissory stayman, all the other bids except heart raises show 4 spades.

I've used it on say a 4252 slam invite hand since I was 12, 35 years ago and definitely qualified as a beginner. Slightly more recently we added 4243 type hands and very recently we've introduced some hands that don't have a 4 card major in them of the (23)44 type, but you don't need to do that. It's one of the few sensible ways of bidding a 4252 if you don't play 4 suit transfers.

We use 1N-2♣-2M-3m in the old fashioned bad 4-6 way (more useful over a weak no trump).

[billw55]

Cyberyeti, on 2012-June-28, 07:23, said:

I've played this as artificial since I was a complete beginner, I saw no point in 1N-2♣-2♥-2♠ showing spades although you may have them, playing promissory stayman, all the other bids except heart raises show 4 spades.

If you were considering the meaning of the fourth bid in an auction (with inferences even!), you were well beyond "complete beginner" level. To me "complete beginner" means still learning things like: how to correctly open at the one level, what vulnerability means, how to score 3♠ making, etc.

IMO the best answer to the OP is: most advanced players treat 1NT-2♣-2♠-4NT as quantitative invite to 6NT. Everything else in this thread is beyond B/N level.

[blackshoe]

billw55, on 2012-July-05, 08:01, said:

To me "complete beginner" means still learning things like: how to correctly open at the one level, what vulnerability means, how to score 3♠ making, etc.

If not knowing how to score 3♠ making is a criterion for "complete beginner", we've got a lot of complete beginners around here who've been playing for at least a decade.

[awm]

Standard is that 4NT is quantitative here.

Over 1NT-2♣-2♥/2♠, standard is that bidding three of a minor shows a game-forcing hand with five or more in that minor. Whether this also promises four cards in the unbid major depends on your other methods (do you have another way to try for slam in a minor over 1NT).

As to how to bid blackwood, a simple observation is that 1NT-2♣-2♠-3♥ is not an auction that makes a lot of sense. If you have spades, why not raise? If you have four hearts, you can bid 2NT or 3NT and partner will know (because you bid stayman). If you have five hearts (without spades), why did you not start with a transfer to hearts or some other heart bid instead of stayman? Similarly, 1NT-2♣-2♥-3♠ doesn't make a lot of sense. If you have four spades, you can show them by bidding 2♠ or some number of notrump.

This being the case, most intermediate-to-advanced players use a bid of the other major after stayman as showing a strong raise of opener's major. Often jumps to four of a minor are used in this way also, with some distinction in the exact type of hand shown.