[Flem72]

For once I'm asking for insight before I go nuts trying to reinvent a wheel.

Say you want to play Gaz at 16 and up. Any theoretical advantages to your choice of range for 1NT? Seems like you could go 16-18 or 12/13-15, but, IIRC, most Gaz structures I've seen fit with a 14-16 (but mayber they Gaz at 17+)

Regards and Happy Trails,

Scott Needham
Boulder, Colorado, USA

[awm]

Part of the point of Gazzilli is so you don't have to open 1nt with 5-card major. So generally it won't effect what 1nt range you choose...

[kenrexford]

I don't play "Gazilli," but something similar, and the call of 2C helps handle tweener balanced 17-18 when 2NT rebid is artificial gf.

[bluecalm]

Yeah the point is to open 1M and not 1NT on 5M-(3-3-2)'s or at least have a choice to do so.
If you utilize standard 15-17 NT range 15 becomes borderline because then you are forced to game opposite 8hcp which might not be your cup of tea.

[32519]

Whatever you do, just don’t try and build Gazzilli into a system that is wasn’t designed for. You are going to run into a wall like so many other Gazzilli threads in these forums bear testimony to. I found 20 threads with “Gazzilli” spelt correctly, another 7 spelt “Gazilli” (only 1 z), and 2 spelt as “Gazz.”

[mike777]

32519, on 2012-August-14, 00:49, said:

Whatever you do, just don’t try and build Gazzilli into a system that is wasn’t designed for. You are going to run into a wall like so many other Gazzilli threads in these forums bear testimony to. I found 20 threads with “Gazzilli” spelt correctly, another 7 spelt “Gazilli” (only 1 z), and 2 spelt as “Gazz.”

Very interesting post, first time in years I heard this.

You seem to say build a system around gazzilli rather than add gazzilli to your common 2/1 system/style?

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too(to or too?, my grammer gets worse with age;where is the HOG when I need him) sort of start at the beginning what issues does gazzilli try to solve compared to the common issues/problems with 2/1?

[Free]

When you want to open 1NT denying a 5 card M, Gazzilli makes this quite easy. It also gives us better tools to handle intermediate 1M openings imo. That's why I prefer 16+ (and not 17+ or even stronger like some do). Moreover, strong hands can stay lower, and distributional hands can jump like in Precision (example 1M-1NT-3m shows 2 good 5-card suits with less than 16HCP, something like AKxxx-x-AQJxx-xx).

There's no point in adjusting your NT range, because Gazzilli applies to hands which are never opened 1NT anyway.

[mike777]

Free, on 2012-August-14, 01:19, said:

When you want to open 1NT denying a 5 card M, Gazzilli makes this quite easy. It also gives us better tools to handle intermediate 1M openings imo. That's why I prefer 16+ (and not 17+ or even stronger like some do). Moreover, strong hands can stay lower, and distributional hands can jump like in Precision (example 1M-1NT-3m shows 2 good 5-card suits with less than 16HCP, something like AKxxx-x-AQJxx-xx).

There's no point in adjusting your NT range, because Gazzilli applies to hands which are never opened 1NT anyway.

ok so in non gazzilli we open alot.....often non semi bal hands say in 14-`16 range to make our one bids more precise..

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with that said i fully fully concede that 14-16 unbal hands are indeed a problem

[mgoetze]

awm, on 2012-August-13, 16:57, said:

Part of the point of Gazzilli is so you don't have to open 1nt with 5-card major. So generally it won't effect [sic] what 1nt range you choose...

I disagree. The point of Gazzilli is to allow you to sort out the strength of opener's hand, and it has nothing to do with whether you include 5-card majors in 1NT or not. If you play 15-17 1NT with all 5-card major hands in and you bid Gazzilli followed by showing a balanced hand, then it will be 18+. That doesn't mean you can't also bid it on 16+ unbalanced hands if you like.

Basically I don't understand the OP's question.

[mike777]

when I read about such things as market garden


my first thought is you guys are idiots
00---\\

I have never played it ...but at thispoint

You come across as idiots....see market garden


see gazzilla

[bluecalm]

Quote

I disagree. The point of Gazzilli is to allow you to sort out the strength of opener's hand, and it has nothing to do with whether you include 5-card majors in 1NT or not. If you play 15-17 1NT with all 5-card major hands in and you bid Gazzilli followed by showing a balanced hand, then it will be 18+. That doesn't mean you can't also bid it on 16+ unbalanced hands if you like.

While you can still open 1NT with 5M-3-3-2 15-17 when playing Gazilli you can't do that the other way around, at least not comfortably and not without some other gadget to sort ranges out.
So, one of the points of Gazilli is being able to open 1M with 5M-3-3-2 and 15-17hcp which elite pairs playing it takes advantage of (all Italian pairs religiously open 1M with that shape).

[bluecalm]

Quote

I disagree. The point of Gazzilli is to allow you to sort out the strength of opener's hand, and it has nothing to do with whether you include 5-card majors in 1NT or not. If you play 15-17 1NT with all 5-card major hands in and you bid Gazzilli followed by showing a balanced hand, then it will be 18+. That doesn't mean you can't also bid it on 16+ unbalanced hands if you like.

While you can still open 1NT with 5M-3-3-2 15-17 when playing Gazilli you can't do that the other way around, at least not comfortably and not without some other gadget to sort ranges out.
So, one of the points of Gazilli is being able to open 1M with 5M-3-3-2 and 15-17hcp which elite pairs playing it takes advantage of (all Italian pairs religiously open 1M with that shape).

[mgoetze]

bluecalm, on 2012-August-14, 05:27, said:

While you can still open 1NT with 5M-3-3-2 15-17 when playing Gazilli you can't do that the other way around, at least not comfortably and not without some other gadget to sort ranges out.

Oh sure, but there are also a lot of other things you can't bid comfortably without Gazzilli and without other gadgets. Claiming that Gazzilli is focused on balanced hands is like claiming that finding minor suit slams is one of the points of playing Stayman.

[32519]

mike777, on 2012-August-14, 00:55, said:

Very interesting post, first time in years I heard this.

You seem to say build a system around gazzilli rather than add gazzilli to your common 2/1 system/style?

In my books, an appropriate system incorporating Gazzilli is streets ahead of Precision. Why? The answer is straight forward. Against good opponents, the Precision 1♣ opening is vulnerable to aggressive pre-empting (I think it was Vampyr who suggested that the 1♣ opening is Precision’s biggest weakness!). Depending on the level of the pre-empt and the vulnerability, the 1♣ opener may never get to show his real suit.

Now compare that to an appropriate system incorporating Gazzilli –
1. You get to show your real suit immediately, sidestepping any possible pre-empt.
2. The 2♣ follow up bid now shows the 16+ HCP hand (equivalent to Precisions 1♣ opening).
3. Responders second bid now gives an indication as to whether or not game is on.

I see Gazzilli as a serious attempt to overcome Precision’s shortcomings (although I do admit you still run into enough problems with hands not dovetailing well).

[fromageGB]

I agree with mgoetze on this. The use of Gazzilli is to show the strength of hands that open 1M, and has no bearing on the strength of the NT open. If you have a rebid after Gazzilli that shows a balanced hand, there is no reason why you can't play 15-17 NT and have that bid showing 18+, even if with less balanced hands you have 16 or whatever for the use of Gazzilli. The strength of NT is irrelevant to Gazzilli, it is just that you obviously have balanced rebids after Gazzilli with a different strength to your NT open if the latter includes 5 card majors.

Of course, if your 1NT denies a biddable 5 card major, then there is no connection at all.

[Free]

4. You have the possibility to show good 5-5's weaker than a precision 1♣ opening by jumping
5. You can bid 6M-4m GF much better (using 2NT)

[helene_t]

mike777, on 2012-August-14, 00:55, said:

too(to or too?, my grammer gets worse with age;where is the HOG when I need him) sort of start at the beginning what issues does gazzilli try to solve compared to the common issues/problems with 2/1?

"to sort of start at" gives 38,800 hits on google.

replace "to" with "two", "too" or "2" and you get zero hits.