[Vampyr]

blackshoe, on 2012-September-02, 08:59, said:

I have nonetheless had a director (and sometimes a player) stand over me waggling his fingers impatiently while I'm shuffling. Frequently, btw, this occurs after the clock has given the three minute warning, but before the round has been called, which is most annoying.

How thoroughly do you shuffle the cards? It seems to me that the process is so short that it would be hard for anyone to find time to waggle their fingers.

[barmar]

Vampyr, on 2012-September-02, 12:10, said:

Yes, it is fine to occasionally sort the cards for the next player. I don't mind doing this, and I don't know anyone who does. But doing it all the time would be really annoying. (Plus, anyone who really didn't want to sort for a player at the next table could always change seats with their partner.)

If it were normal practice, I think everyone would just get used to it and not think much of it. It would be annoying during the transition, but pretty soon you'd forget that you ever did anything else.

I've never played anywhere with curtain cards, but surely filling them in and then checking them after each board is even more tedious (I'll bet most people sort their hands to do this), and they're common in many places.

[barmar]

Vampyr, on 2012-September-02, 12:12, said:

How thoroughly do you shuffle the cards? It seems to me that the process is so short that it would be hard for anyone to find time to waggle their fingers.

Maybe he's like the player in my club I mentioned earlier, who spends 15-20 seconds repeatedly riffle-shuffling his hand.

[Vampyr]

barmar, on 2012-September-02, 14:13, said:

I've never played anywhere with curtain cards, but surely filling them in and then checking them after each board is even more tedious (I'll bet most people sort their hands to do this), and they're common in many places.

I'd be interested in learning some of the "many places" where curtain cards are common, but anyway I don't see the connection.

[lamford]

barmar, on 2012-August-31, 11:10, said:

I think you got the hand backwards.

No, the person in my example was left-handed, or sorted the cards with the face of the lowest card in his pocket on the right. Or he counted them, reversing the order. The order specified was the order in which they were played last time, shall we say. In the OP I wrote: "He picked up his hand, bottom card first".

[lamford]

gordontd, on 2012-August-31, 02:54, said:

I think it would be quite noticeable if a player took a few seconds looking at their hand before starting to sort it.

I think it would be quite noticeable if a player did not sort his hand at all. But there is nothing that I can find in the Laws which requires him to sort it. The only place I can find the requirement is in 41D before putting dummy down.

[barmar]

Vampyr, on 2012-September-02, 16:09, said:

I'd be interested in learning some of the "many places" where curtain cards are common, but anyway I don't see the connection.

No idea, I just thought I'd heard them mentioned in threads in the past few years. But even if they're not common now, they were at one time in some countries, and people put up with them.

The connection is that the process of filling them in or checking that the hands all match them probably requires sorting your hands, and you do this at the end of each hand. But maybe I don't really understand how they're used. Perhaps players only check the hands against them if it looks like the board has been fouled.

[mycroft]

barmar, on 2012-September-01, 12:42, said:

I have many times played in games where a player at the next table was disabled like this, and requested that the person playing the boards before him sort at the end. No one has ever refused.

Vampyr, on 2012-September-02, 12:10, said:

Yes, it is fine to occasionally sort the cards for the next player. I don't mind doing this, and I don't know anyone who does. But doing it all the time would be really annoying. (Plus, anyone who really didn't want to sort for a player at the next table could always change seats with their partner.)

I haven't had anyone *refuse* refuse, but I have had them pull out "why should I have to?" and, much more commonly, gripe about having to sort *and* do all the things that the Lord of the Table (and yes, it usually is LadyOTT, but not always) has to do, three or four times during the session. Obviously, it's key to put in the score, and check the traveller, and put in their personal score (that has to be retrieved from the floor/purse), and switch the boards, and talk about the hand - there's no time to sort. And heaven help anyone who suggests that maybe for this session they just sit South (the players I'm thinking of that need cards sorted also have issues writing, so they punch in the numbers and partner keeps personal score. Frankly, I think that should be SOP, and I certainly suggest it any time anyone uses it as an excuse for why they shouldn't have to sort or why they're always late - to the same "but I'm the LOTT" reaction, of course, which always amuses me).

barmar said:

Regarding sorting at the beginning versus end. Yes, they take about the same amount of time. But at the end of a hand, you're often rushed if you're running late, and players are likely to time-consuming skip a step like this if they're being hurried to move on. But giving the cards a quick shuffle before putting them back in the board is much easier at that time.

Once you get used to it, sorting takes little or no more time - especially if the person you're sorting for doesn't mind having them "in suits, but not necessarily in order". Getting used to it *does* take time, and switching gears to remember takes time.

Having said that, the "norm" in England was to sort after playing, and there are still a couple of old Englanders that play in my tournaments that can't break the habit. I am used to calls round 2 of "director, my hand's sorted"; I have been known to look down a table or two, say, "Yep, I'm not surprised. This might not be the last time this session", and wander away. They usually Get It after two or three boards.

[bluejak]

iviehoff, on 2012-August-31, 08:03, said:

Because you no longer have to spend the time you currently waste shuffling them.

Yes, but that time is completely trivial. It is very rare that the scoring has been done by the time my hand is in the board, duly shuffled. Sorting certainly takes longer, but not critically.

iviehoff, on 2012-August-31, 08:03, said:

As for Gordon's comment on people moving the suits around, are not prepared hands often delivered sorted into suits, and often in that annoying-to-many order that puts the reds together in the middle? If people do feel the necessity to re-sort the cards in a way that reveals information to people watching, is that not their own fault, in the same category of any other kind of extraneous info revealed? Is it not also an offence against the proprieties deliberately to observe such sorting? I think it is considerable exaggeration to say that this is a "big problem". Rather I think people would quickly get used to it, learn how to cope without revealing information, and think what a wonderful improvement it is.

I also think Gordon is wrong that it leads to abuse for everyone to sort. It just won't happen even if it is made a rule.

barmar, on 2012-September-02, 14:13, said:

I've never played anywhere with curtain cards, but surely filling them in and then checking them after each board is even more tedious (I'll bet most people sort their hands to do this), and they're common in many places.

Certainly tedious, though experienced players always write them out during the bidding. But you only have to do this on the first round.

[blackshoe]

bluejak, on 2012-September-07, 16:38, said:

Yes, but that time is completely trivial. It is very rare that the scoring has been done by the time my hand is in the board, duly shuffled. Sorting certainly takes longer, but not critically.

Usually, I'm North. If I enter the score first, it will be a moment or two after that's done before my hand's in the board. If I shuffle and replace my hand first, frequently I find the opening bid for the next board (and sometimes the second bid) on the table when I reach for my new hand. And I'm not generally considered a slow player, except by one partner who decided she could perform North's duties faster than I, and so insists that she sit North. Frankly, I don't think she's any faster than I am at it, and sometimes she's slower.