[mr1303]

Assume the following auction:

2S (P) X (P)

Played with screens, South (playing with screens for the first time) thought erroneously that his RHO had opened 2S and so decided to make a take-out double. West, with a bad hand who had had a few too many beers the night before, passed.

Is the double believed to be accepted? If so, if the auction proceeds with 3 passes, does the contract become 2S X?

[RMB1]

The double can not be accepted. When the irregularity is noticed (whether it has been passed through the screen or not) the double and subsequent calls are cancelled. The auction reverts to South and continues as if there had been no irregularity. At least this is what the Laws and EBU screen regulations say.

[Cyberyeti]

RMB1, on 2012-November-14, 07:18, said:

The double can not be accepted. When the irregularity is noticed (whether it has been passed through the screen or not) the double and subsequent calls are cancelled. The auction reverts to South and continues as if there had been no irregularity. At least this is what the Laws and EBU screen regulations say.

If several subsequent rounds of bidding have occurred before this is noticed, is any of it authorised info ?

[aguahombre]

RMB1, on 2012-November-14, 07:18, said:

The double can not be accepted. When the irregularity is noticed (whether it has been passed through the screen or not) the double and subsequent calls are cancelled. The auction reverts to South and continues as if there had been no irregularity. At least this is what the Laws and EBU screen regulations say.

I find it interesting that (36A and 36B) if the inadmissable bid is caught at the time, partner is barred; but if LHO passes, the inadmissable bid is still cancelled but there are no restrictions on Opener.

[blackshoe]

aguahombre, on 2012-November-14, 10:28, said:

I find it interesting that (36A and 36B) if the inadmissable bid is caught at the time, partner is barred; but if LHO passes, the inadmissable bid is still cancelled but there are no restrictions on Opener.

An application of the "pay attention!" rule?

[barmar]

I guess the idea is that if you want the penalty applied against an inattentive opponent, you can't be inattentive as well. If you're both asleep at the wheel, you cancel each other out.

[aguahombre]

Yeh, I just think it is interesting...wasn't a complaint. The FOS (first offending side) doesn't seem likely to gain from opener knowing his partner actually has a takeout of 2S; they are not allowed to change the systemic meaning of 2NT or any other response following their own irregularity; and the 2♠ Opener is pretty much just a Puppet for the rest of the auction anyway.

The same thing could be said about this particular auction even if LHO had caught the illegal call at the right time, but them's the rules and responder would just have to place the final contract.

BTW: I suspect that if Responder and his LHO were screenmates, LHO would just have a chuckle and tell responder to replace the double. Perhaps, that should be a recommendation for rules change when screens are in use and the boo boo has not been passed back to offender's partner on the other side.

This post has been edited by aguahombre: 2012-November-14, 11:13

[RMB1]

Cyberyeti, on 2012-November-14, 08:22, said:

If several subsequent rounds of bidding have occurred before this is noticed, is any of it authorised info ?

We (EBU I guess) have interpretted "proceeds as though there had been no irregularity" to mean there are no UI restrictions. But this law explicitly states there are no lead restrictions (Law 26) and does not explicitly meantion Law 16.

[iviehoff]

I wonder if anyone has ever come across a case of getting into the play period following an uncorrected inadmissible (re)double? I guess you'd have to give an artificial score.

[paulg]

iviehoff, on 2012-November-15, 05:52, said:

I wonder if anyone has ever come across a case of getting into the play period following an uncorrected inadmissible (re)double? I guess you'd have to give an artificial score.

It certainly happened in the 2008 European Championships in the women's match between Greece and Scotland. The auction on board 1 went:

North - East - South - West
1♣ - Pass - 1♥ - 1♠
Rdbl - 2♥ - Pass - 3♠
Pass - 4♠ - AP

For some reason no player called the director (and, as npc, I was only told at dinner). This was played with screens and South told West that East had condoned the redouble by letting it come through the screen (another example of international players having no idea about the laws) - West didn't really care

There was no damage as the redouble was correctly described as 'a support redouble' on both sides of the screen.

I tried to use the hand diagram to display the auction, but it does permit an illegal auction. Unlike the bridgemates in use in Pau - I checked the following day

[bluejak]

At least the TD was called in the Ladies' European of some time around the late sixties, where [using spoken bidding] the auction went:

No bid - No bid - Double - Redouble

[iviehoff]

So although the law tells us an inadmissible (re)double can never be accepted, Paul's example shows that in practice they can be, or at least can be made irrelevant by having a bid take place subsequent to them.

If OP's auction had been passed out, and someone had attempted to lead, it could have got very amusing.

[blackshoe]

paulg, on 2012-November-15, 07:04, said:

It certainly happened in the 2008 European Championships in the women's match between Greece and Scotland. The auction on board 1 went:

North - East - South - West
1♣ - Pass - 1♥ - 1♠
Rdbl - 2♥ - Pass - 3♠
Pass - 4♠ - AP

For some reason no player called the director (and, as npc, I was only told at dinner). This was played with screens and South told West that East had condoned the redouble by letting it come through the screen (another example of international players having no idea about the laws) - West didn't really care

There was no damage as the redouble was correctly described as 'a support redouble' on both sides of the screen.

I tried to use the hand diagram to display the auction, but it does permit an illegal auction. Unlike the bridgemates in use in Pau - I checked the following day

Was there a score adjustment on the hand? Any ruling at all?

[aguahombre]

paulg, on 2012-November-15, 07:04, said:

I tried to use the hand diagram to display the auction, but it does permit an illegal auction. Unlike the bridgemates in use in Pau - I checked the following day

I don't believe Bridgemates which record the auction have hit the U.S. yet. Seems a bit cumbersome for the players to pass the device around for each call.

[blackshoe]

I haven't seen them (we use BridgePads here, and they aren't set to record the auction, if they're capable of it) but it strikes me much the same as written bidden.

[paulg]

blackshoe, on 2012-November-15, 10:03, said:

paulg, on 2012-November-15, 07:04, said:

It certainly happened in the 2008 European Championships in the women's match between Greece and Scotland. The auction on board 1 went:

North - East - South - West
1♣ - Pass - 1♥ - 1♠
Rdbl - 2♥ - Pass - 3♠
Pass - 4♠ - AP

For some reason no player called the director (and, as npc, I was only told at dinner). This was played with screens and South told West that East had condoned the redouble by letting it come through the screen (another example of international players having no idea about the laws) - West didn't really care

There was no damage as the redouble was correctly described as 'a support redouble' on both sides of the screen.

I tried to use the hand diagram to display the auction, but it does permit an illegal auction. Unlike the bridgemates in use in Pau - I checked the following day

Was there a score adjustment on the hand? Any ruling at all?

Director was never called.

[aguahombre]

blackshoe, on 2012-November-15, 10:13, said:

I haven't seen them (we use BridgePads here, and they aren't set to record the auction, if they're capable of it) but it strikes me much the same as written bidden.

BridgePads are what we use, also. But, to only be able to see the entire auction when the Mate is in one's own control would not be a good thing ---for instance we couldn't know to alert until after righty has acted.

Alternatively we would have to have both bidding boxes and the Bridgemate/pad in use during the auction......cumbersome.

[paulg]

aguahombre, on 2012-November-15, 10:09, said:

I don't believe Bridgemates which record the auction have hit the U.S. yet. Seems a bit cumbersome for the players to pass the device around for each call.

I believe it is a setting that is rarely enabled, but at the Europeans that year every team had to provide a recorder to enter the bidding and play into the bridgemate. This meant that a lot of data was recorded, for example, http://eurobridge.or...qmatchid=26092.

At recent Europeans this has not been a requirement, perhaps because of the economic climate and the smaller countries who could not afford to bring, or hire, a recorder.

[blackshoe]

aguahombre, on 2012-November-15, 10:20, said:

BridgePads are what we use, also. But, to only be able to see the entire auction when the Mate is in one's own control would not be a good thing ---for instance we couldn't know to alert until after righty has acted.

Alternatively we would have to have both bidding boxes and the Bridgemate/pad in use during the auction......cumbersome.

Good points.

I suppose the separate recorder Paul mentioned works well — but it's not going to happen in club games.

[Fluffy]

paulg, on 2012-November-15, 10:23, said:

I believe it is a setting that is rarely enabled, but at the Europeans that year every team had to provide a recorder to enter the bidding and play into the bridgemate. This meant that a lot of data was recorded, for example, http://eurobridge.or...qmatchid=26092.

At recent Europeans this has not been a requirement, perhaps because of the economic climate and the smaller countries who could not afford to bring, or hire, a recorder.

Instead of paying someone to do it we rather scored ourselves in Ostende it was a pain in the ass. Rich teams already have more than enough advantages.