[hallway]

A blast from the past
In reply to eagles123 post of June 2009 ( in a thread that started in 2004) zelandakh replied (April 2, 2013) that BBO defines a beginner as someone who has 'played bridge for more than 6 months but less that a year' - yes the guideline for choosing a skill level on one's BBO profile does indeed says that.

If only reality were that simple It is a conundrum one I have battled with these past 9 years
It begs the question how much playing does one have had to do in those 6 months

I had a member join the BIL just last week - been a BBO member for YEARS - been playing with Robots, been kibbing tables BUT she is very much a beginner level bridge player and when one of my BILHosts talked her into sitting at the table - it was the very first time ever that she had sat to play with humans. I am pleased to say she enjoyed it so much she is now attending every lesson she can get to and is the first in the queue to take the 'hot seat' during a lesson. Do we now have 6 months to turn her into an Intermediate or did her time as a beginner run out years ago playing with robots ?

I have members who joined the BIL as far back as 2005 who are still just 'beginner' level players. They play socially with their peers couple times a month and have no interest in becoming competitive players or playing any better than they do now.

On the other hand I have had someone who had never played bridge sign up for a series of BIL Beginning Bridge Courses and take to it like a duckling to water, went on to join an improving/upper intermediate mentoring group and was recommended to be given BIL Graduate membership ( considered able to hold his own with low level advanced players) within the year. Time to leave the nest ! I only look after beginner and intermediate players.

The BIL classifies players on 6 levels Starter, Beginner, Improving Beginner, Intermediate, Improving Intermediate and Upper Intermediate. These levels though, in this online environment, are still self rated but at least they do need to think about what they know and what they don't. They get invited to join courses and/or assigned to a mentor based on the level they have chosen for themselves and they very soon find out if they have under rated themselves or have been thinking they are better than they really are.

Our mentors choose what level of player they wish to tutor and those that have under or over rated themselves get reassigned.

But it is still subjective. We try to focus on what it is they know and can apply confidently at the table.

I have had Upper Intermediate Hosts helping with the 'housekeeping' at a Beginner class on Basic Declarer Play who have admitted to having learnt something. Yet, one would reasonably presume that being able to hold their own at Upper intermediate level there should be nothing they don't know about Basic Declarer Play

It is an unsolvable conundrum. Part, of the fascination that is Bridge.

But I do so wish, as I did when I posted to that other thread back in 2004, that when a BEGINNER asks a Basic Bridge Question that they be given the courtesy of a BEGINNER level reply and not belittled by having all manner of fancy stuff thrown at them by those who just want to show off what they think is their superior knowledge.
- or is it perhaps that they are afraid of the up and coming competition )

It doesn't matter how long you play bridge or how very good you become at it - there will ALWAYS be something more to learn !

and like it or not the new to bridge BEGINNER player is the FUTURE of Bridge - they should be encouraged, nurtured and treated with respect.

[billw55]

I accept using "beginner" to describe a period of time and/or still learning the rules of play. Whereas "novice" describes a skill level, regardless of amount of time playing.

Players who have played for a long time but are still novice in skill often don't accept or admit this fact. They tend to identify themselves as intermediates, which can skew the perception of what skill "intermediate" designates.

[Phil]

Maureen with regards to the B/I section I don't think it's warranted to bring up attitudes expressed 4 years ago. The tone on this forum is much gentler now.

With regards to teaching beginners I totally agree. Even many 'graduates' of Easybridge and other series just don't have a clue about the game. They might know what Stayman is but they couldn't solve a Bridgemaster Level 1 hand if their life depended on it.

[hallway]

billw55

It may have changed but haven't time to go and look, but the last time I did the BBO designation of a Novice was something that was less than a Beginner - cant remember the wording.

Perhaps you could tell me what it is now please



Phil : ok glad to hear there is a gentler approach now a days .

[Zelandakh]

The official BBO levels coincide roughly with
Novice = <6 months
Beginner = 6 months - 1 year
Intermediate = most players
Advanced = regular tournament success
Expert = national level success
WC = international success

Without bringing up the whole ratings system discussion (yet) again, I am a strong advocate of the idea that Intermediate in the above is too broad and there should be an additional intermediate category, something like "Improver". In comparison with BIL ratings, I would suggest that Novice and Beginner coincide with Starter; the 2 Beginner categories are effectively what I am calling Improver; and the 3 Intermediate categories are sub-divisions of BBO Intermediate. In other words, your categories reflect the rating division that I have been arguing for for a long time.

It is also clear that there is a large overlap between categories. Many (current) intermediates can benefit from Starter-level lessons. And even Advanced players might get some benefit from specific categories. For example, you can become Advanced by just being a good card player without knowing very much about bidding theory. I can also very easily relate to your story of the Beginner classes; as an Upper Intermediate myself, but one who is significantly more at home with bidding theory than card play, I daresay I could get something out of such lessons too.

One thing I will say about BIL graduation is that I think there is far too much emphasis put on knowledge of conventions. A while back I was doing some unofficial mentoring and was shocked to find out that the student needed to learn something like 20 conventions plus a dozen or so different types of doubles in order to graduate. That would not be a problem except that the majority of the conventions were pretty pointless. Sure, provide classes for teaching some unusual things so that the students are aware of them, but make it clear that the knowledge is not required for graduation and is not going to have any major impact on their results. Aside from that, I think the BIL is an excellent resource and hope it continues to prosper. As you say, new players are the lifeblood of the game and I wish that regulators also had this as their top priority in deciding how the game develops.

[WGF_Flame]

I know people who play 10 years and more but just don't know much about how to play this game. I don't mean squeeze, i mean finesse.

[billw55]

hallway, on 2013-April-03, 18:10, said:

billw55

It may have changed but haven't time to go and look, but the last time I did the BBO designation of a Novice was something that was less than a Beginner - cant remember the wording.

Zelandakh, on 2013-April-04, 01:58, said:

The official BBO levels coincide roughly with
Novice = <6 months
Beginner = 6 months - 1 year
Intermediate = most players
Advanced = regular tournament success
Expert = national level success
WC = international success

It is true, BBO lists novice below beginner, but this is contrary to my understanding of these words. In my opinion the terms should be reversed. I guess it doesn't really matter much though.

And yes, we have a beginner/novice section now, and replies are more appropriate, while still occasionally going a little over the bar.

[hallway]

Quote

One thing I will say about BIL graduation is that I think there is far too much emphasis put on knowledge of conventions. A while back I was doing some unofficial mentoring and was shocked to find out that the student needed to learn something like 20 conventions plus a dozen or so different types of doubles in order to graduate. That would not be a problem except that the majority of the conventions were pretty pointless. Sure, provide classes for teaching some unusual things so that the students are aware of them, but make it clear that the knowledge is not required for graduation and is not going to have any major impact on their results. Aside from that, I think the BIL is an excellent resource and hope it continues to prosper. As you say, new players are the lifeblood of the game and I wish that regulators also had this as their top priority in deciding how the game develops.

Don't know who you are talking about but it certainly aint the BIL when it comes to conventions - I warn my members ALL of the time - do NOT become a conventionphile. Bidding is a 'conversation' between partners and unless they both speak the same language they can end up, 'up the creek without a paddle'. A BIL Teacher/Mentor's assessment is based on the student's overall knowledge and ability to apply that knowledge in all aspects of the game consistently to make them worthy of being recommended for Graduation.

Yes, we have some guidelines

and sure in the BIL Library we list a good many Conventions and some of the more common Doubles so that when members come across them mentioned on other's profiles they can satisfy their curiosity and read about them - but nowhere does it say that these are must know. There are only 6 that have been starred as essential.

[Lord Molyb]

Zelandakh, on 2013-April-04, 01:58, said:

The official BBO levels coincide roughly with
Novice = <6 months
Beginner = 6 months - 1 year
Intermediate = most players
Advanced = regular tournament success
Expert = national level success
WC = international success

I should play more tournaments so I can go straight from beginner to advanced

A beginner is someone that is learning at an abnormal rate (either much slower or much faster) then they will learn in the future.
edit: whoops don't know how I managed to bump a month old topic, sorry

[Antrax]

Also, that definition doesn't make a lot of sense to me. You seem to be saying that if I'm a Bridge prodigy, then I'm a beginner. That may have some syntactic value (if I've just begun, then I'm a beginner) but people are expecting the word to express something about skill level, not potential or calendar date.

[Siegmund]

Weird to me that "beginner" is being used to refer to any time other than the beginning of the time you play bridge -- in my mind, beginner is below novice, not above. (Yes, I know the official BBO meaning is the other way round. I think they got it wrong.)

As far as questions on this forum go, if they are things that are in the standard textbooks and the books all agree, they belong here. As soon as they move into controversial areas they belong in int/adv or one of the bidding forums.