High level misunderstanding
#1
Posted 2013-November-05, 04:01
Partner opens 4H, and RHO overcalls 4S, what is the meaning of 5m here?
If it's a cuebid, what if you initially passed partner's opening and then bid 5m over LHO's 4S?
#2
Posted 2013-November-05, 04:52
The second sequence to me is "I'm bidding 5♥, but you might want to lead a club".
#3
Posted 2013-November-05, 04:58
Cyberyeti, on 2013-November-05, 04:52, said:
The second sequence to me is "I'm bidding 5♥, but you might want to lead a club".
Most likely partner will not be on lead. That is why there is a big difference between this sequence and one where RHO makes a takeout double.
Of course, it all depends on what you agree, but a common agreement is:
- After a double a new suit is a lead directing raise to 5♥.
- After an overcall it is a raise showing a side suit to help partner decide what to do when they bid 5♠ (or a slam).
Rik
The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds the new discoveries, is not “Eureka!” (I found it!), but “That’s funny…” – Isaac Asimov
The only reason God did not put "Thou shalt mind thine own business" in the Ten Commandments was that He thought that it was too obvious to need stating. - Kenberg
#4
Posted 2013-November-05, 05:19
Trinidad, on 2013-November-05, 04:58, said:
I was talking about 4♥-P-P-4♠-P-P-5♣ where partner is on lead if the 4♠ bidder's partner bids 5♠, and this is much more helpful than just bidding 5♥.
#5
Posted 2013-November-05, 06:03
Cyberyeti, on 2013-November-05, 05:19, said:
Sorry.
I should learn to read better.
(I thought of deleting my silly post but I decided not to because it might have some value anyway.)
Rik
The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds the new discoveries, is not “Eureka!” (I found it!), but “That’s funny…” – Isaac Asimov
The only reason God did not put "Thou shalt mind thine own business" in the Ten Commandments was that He thought that it was too obvious to need stating. - Kenberg
#6
Posted 2013-November-05, 10:37
4♥ P P 4♠
P P 5♣ is for a lead against a potential 5♠: this seems pretty clear.
However, without discussion, 4♥ 4♠ 5♣ is to play. I don't see the case for a different agreement. You can still have any hand and shouldn't be barred from bidding clubs if that's what you have. Those who want it to show a heart fit: what kind of hand do you have in mind?
#7
Posted 2013-November-05, 10:50
It's my view that if partner opens 4♥ then hearts are trumps, and I don't really see that subsequent events can change that. No doubt one can construct hands where I want to play in clubs, but I let them go for the simplicity of either playing in hearts or defending.
I think that if I bid 5♥ directly over 4♠, partner is to leave all remaining decisions, if any, to me. If I bid 5♣ over 4♠ he gets a say in the matter as well. I am announcing that hearts are fine by me, it's our hand, I have something in clubs.
In the optional slower auction, I don't really think that this changes.
#8
Posted 2013-November-05, 11:19
kenberg, on 2013-November-05, 10:50, said:
Absolutely. 5C brings Pard back into the auction where 5H does not. But, I think "something in clubs" is too vague. We choose length (4+) and a concentration of strength (KQ, AJT, etc). What is your "something"? Maybe ours is too restrictive.
#9
Posted 2013-November-05, 12:08
#10
Posted 2013-November-05, 12:13
#11
Posted 2013-November-05, 14:36
kenberg, on 2013-November-05, 10:50, said:
It's my view that if partner opens 4♥ then hearts are trumps, and I don't really see that subsequent events can change that. No doubt one can construct hands where I want to play in clubs, but I let them go for the simplicity of either playing in hearts or defending.
I think that if I bid 5♥ directly over 4♠, partner is to leave all remaining decisions, if any, to me. If I bid 5♣ over 4♠ he gets a say in the matter as well. I am announcing that hearts are fine by me, it's our hand, I have something in clubs.
In the optional slower auction, I don't really think that this changes.
I'm having trouble understanding how this can be the case: especially the last part If I passed 4♥ initially, I clearly don't think we have a slam. But now I want to involve partner in the decision of whether or not to compete to 6♥ over 5♠? I mean you said that it should say it's your hand so if we're bidding slam then it's to make. Can't I just double 5♠ and live with it rather than bid a slam that I don't want to be in?
#12
Posted 2013-November-06, 12:48
#13
Posted 2013-November-06, 14:16
#14
Posted 2013-November-06, 15:19
manudude03, on 2013-November-06, 12:48, said:
This was precisely my point: what are you wanting partner to do when he understands your bid that 5♥ doesn't accomplish? Can't you just double 5♠ with that hand if they bid it?
#16
Posted 2013-November-06, 16:13
#18
Posted 2013-November-06, 16:47
manudude03, on 2013-November-06, 12:48, said:
It is possible to construct a hand on which it is right to play in 5♣, but you are going to have to work at it.
Whatever you choose for the meaning of 5♣, to play should not be one of the choices. A 4♥ opening by partner pretty much ends the discussion of choice of trump suit. After that opening, the only options are some number of hearts or a slam in notrump.
The only exception would be if responder jumped to a slam in another suit. Unless you assign a specific meaning to that call, it should be to play.
#19
Posted 2013-November-06, 18:54
aguahombre, on 2013-November-06, 14:16, said:
Eddie Kantar's eight year old nephew, on why, when playing with his uncle, he didn't make a negative double: "I knew it, but I didn't know if Uncle Eddie knew I knew it".
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#20
Posted 2013-November-06, 20:19