[lowerline]

I recently learned how Brink-Drijver play Puppet Stayman after 1nt.

After 1nt-3♣

• 3♦ is no 5crd major, then 3♥ 5crd ♠, 3♠ 5crd ♥, 3nt to play
• 3♥ is 5crd ♥, then 3♠ to play 3nt, 3nt 5crd ♠
• 3♠ is 5crd ♠ doubleton ♥, then 3nt to play
• 3nt is 5crd ♠ 3crd ♥, then 4♣ transfer ♥, 4♦ transfer ♠

The advantage is that a sequence like 1nt-2♦-2♥-3♣ always shows slam interest.
The disadvantage is that with 43 in the majors responder will use ordinary Stayman and is unable to discover a possible 5-3 fit.


What do you think of this? Will it remain a gadget of this pair or will it be picked up by others?


Steven

[jallerton]

Playing standard responsive methods over a 1NT opening which is permitted to include a 5-card major, it's not usually possible for Responder to check for a both a 5-3 fit in Responder's 5-card major and a 5-3 fit in the other major. This is quite a neat solution to the problem.

 lowerline, on 2013-December-03, 10:07, said:

The disadvantage is that with 43 in the majors responder will use ordinary Stayman and is unable to discover a possible 5-3 fit.

Not necessarily. After 1NT-2♣Stayman-2M, many pairs have a way to find out on the next round whether Opener has a fifth card in his major.

[Zelandakh]

 jallerton, on 2013-December-03, 17:24, said:

Playing standard responsive methods over a 1NT opening which is permitted to include a 5-card major, it's not usually possible for Responder to check for a both a 5-3 fit in Responder's 5-card major and a 5-3 fit in the other major. This is quite a neat solution to the problem.

Playing 2♣ as Puppet Stayman works here too. With 5♠-3♥ and GF values use the sequence 1NT - 2♣; 2♦ - 2♥ followed by 3♠. 1NT - 2♣; 2♦ - 2♠ followed by 3♥ is then bid with 5♥-3♠ and GF values. With invitational values just start with a transfer and Opener shows their 5 card major en route to 3NT with a maximum.

[dake50]

Playing standard responsive methods over a 1NT opening which is permitted to include a 5-card major, it's not usually possible for Responder to check for a both a 5-3 fit in Responder's 5-card major and a 5-3 fit in the other major. This is quite a neat solution to the problem.

Not necessarily. After 1NT-2♣Stayman-2M, many pairs have a way to find out on the next round whether Opener has a fifth card in his major.

*** And Smolen finds 3-5? With no aspirations for higher?
Or 3-5 fit found; automatic control bid from opener?

[Free]

I guess it will remain a gadget. I don't see much merit, only when you hold 5-3M. But then again, there are other solutions to that issue like playing Smolen as 5-4 or 5-3, not allowing to open 1NT with 5-2M, Gazzilli,...

[Cascade]

 lowerline, on 2013-December-03, 10:07, said:

The disadvantage is that with 43 in the majors responder will use ordinary Stayman and is unable to discover a possible 5-3 fit.

There are better options that will always find the fit in this case.

[lowerline]

Maybe I didn't explain it well, but the idea is to use this convention any time responder has a 5crd major without slam interest. Then a sequence like 1nt-2♦-2♥-3♣ always shows slam interest (with 5-5 or a strong 5-4). So it is not just another tool for finding the 5-3 major fit, but it is a way to distinguish the game-going hands from the slam-going hands when responder has a 5crd major and a minor suit on the side.

Steven

[Kungsgeten]

What about this?

1NT-2C; 2D-3M = Smolen, could be 5-3 majors
1NT-2C; 2M-3NT = Choice of games with 3 card support and 5 cards in the other major

In other words: Game forcing hands with 5-3 majors starts with Stayman. In this version game forcing hands with a 4 card major (but not both) starts with Puppet Stayman.

[bluecalm]

Quote

The advantage is that a sequence like 1nt-2♦-2♥-3♣ always shows slam interest.

So what do you do with say 3-5-1-4 hand and no slam interest ?
The thing is there is a lot of equity in playing in 3NT if one have 5M-3-3-2 opposite 4-3-3-3 so if transfer and jump to 3NT just asks to convert with fit you lose this opportunity and if opener is allowed to leave it then you play silly 3nt with singleton to 3 card suit.
In general looking for 5 card majors after 1NT is -EV play at imps. With something like 2-3-4-4 you have 1 in 11 chance of finding your fit and then you make ~6% more often which gives you ~0.6imp once every 11 tries. In remaining hands they have 10 chances to hurt you by making lead directional double (or from inference from one not appearing) and defending better in middle hand. One overtrick is enough to kill your profit and your loses are going to be more than that.

The only way you can make puppet work is if you somehow include other crucial hands there and discover 5-3 fits by accident. Again it's not worth much even if you succeed at not leaking information and it's better to just forget about it and focus on more profitable situations (like playing in 3nt with 5M-3-3-2 opposite 4-3-3-3).

[Zelandakh]

 bluecalm, on 2014-January-22, 14:52, said:

So what do you do with say 3-5-1-4 hand and no slam interest ?

Lowerline actually explained that in the sentence before the one you quoted - he uses B-D 3♣ Puppet Stayman on that hand. You often write about how bad PS is and yet the usage rate on expert CCs seems to me to be rising rather than falling. Perhaps that is because the system cost of including it is small and, if used intelligently, the benefits, even at IMPs, can be large. One easy example that you have never addressed is finding a slam based on a 5-4 fit that you would not get to if you thought it was only 4-4. That Meckwell use PS, and have done so for some time, should tell you that there is at least some merit in the convention. It seems likely to me that they would have uncovered such a glaring hole that would lose 10 times out of 11 by now if it were true. So perhaps you should re-consider your statistics on this?

[jogs]

The main drawback with puppet is you need a partnership with both partner's capable of remembering all the sequences. I found it not worth all those headaches.

[bluecalm]

Quote

Lowerline actually explained that in the sentence before the one you quoted - he uses B-D 3♣ Puppet Stayman on that hand.

Right I missed it.

Quote

That Meckwell use PS, and have done so for some time, should tell you that there is at least some merit in the convention. It seems likely to me that they would have uncovered such a glaring hole that would lose 10 times out of 11 by now if it were true. So perhaps you should re-consider your statistics on this?

It's not very likely they missed one particular hole but it's very likely there are some holes they missed.
Anyway as to Meckwell they've changed 3C puppet to 2NT fixing the biggest problem of the convention (lead directing double) and put 5431's hands (as well as some more slammish hands) there which is important hand type to be able to show opposite 1NT bid.
I like their version of the convention and if I every played a system which forces me to open 1N with 5M332 I would consider it.

[JLOGIC]

 bluecalm, on 2014-January-23, 12:44, said:

if I ever played a system which forces me to open 1N with 5M332...

As if this would ever happen

[bluecalm]

Quote

As if this would ever happen

While I think it's not the best idea in the world it could actually happen.
Funnily enough I had this conversation with my now pro player friend 2 days ago in which he whined to me that 3D a puppet they play never gains and lost several times already to which I replied with my standard "yeah, it sucks what else is new".
They play 1N with 5M332 additionally to Gazilli after 1M-1N... I fail to see the logic in that but w/e. They say those 5M-3-3-2's screw their fancy relay structure after 1M-2C because then some particular 6-4-3-0 wouldn't be biddable. Besides they won the Spingold and not me so what do I know
Btw, to add somethign constructive to this post link to Pavlicek's stats:
http://www.rpbridge.net/9x14.htm
http://www.rpbridge.net/9x13.htm

Not many hands, still very significant difference!

As to puppet, yeah if you must, play it as 2NT and then after 3C (no 5cdM) add some bids to show (1-3)-(5-4) as you want that in your system. Similarly 3361 and 3316 is probably a good idea to puppet with, so that's some hands already :-)
I don't know what exactly Meckwell play but:

1N 2N
3C 3H/3S = stiff, 3N = to play, 3D = 33(61) looks reasonable.

If you do that then you can even puppet with those 3M-(4-4-2)'s as they won't double your 3C so 0.6imps once every 11 boards is worth collecting! Then there is 3-3-(5-2) as well which may actually be significant gain as with 3-3 in majors you hit the jackpot twice as often.
When I look at this structure I am actually getting excited about the puppet thing!

I don't exactly follow the structure from OP, but you if you do that with 5431 (5-3M) then you need something different with 5M-3M-(3-2) as you really don't want to end up in 4M with that opposite 4-3-3-3! This one sucks hard as these:
http://www.rpbridge.net/8z17.htm

stats show.

[bluecalm]

So I digged some more into Meckwell structure and apparently it's:

1N - 2N
3C - ?
3D = (13)(54) then relay for shortness
3H = 4spades-3hearts
3S = 3spades-4hearts
4C = clubs with 3card major, slammish

Hands if you feel like browsing yourself:
https://www.dropbox....puppetpart0.lin
https://www.dropbox....puppetpart1.lin

[bluecalm]

So I digged some more into Meckwell structure and apparently it's:

1N - 2N
3C - ?
3D = (13)(54) then relay for shortness
3H = 4spades-3hearts
3S = 3spades-4hearts
4C = clubs with 3card major, slammish

Hands if you feel like browsing yourself (or maybe compare other methods to):
https://www.dropbox....puppetpart0.lin
https://www.dropbox....puppetpart1.lin