[fromageGB]

I am interested in seeing what people play here. In asking for names I can check for combinations of answers, to save having 64 questions!
Please answer without reference to the hand below.
Edit : which is no longer there. **

I was wondering whether the reply to the double should be based not on having a strong hand or a single-suiter, but whether it should cater to 4 card suits, such as a scrambling NT. That 2NT reply would normally have overcaller bidding 4 card suits up the line to find a reasonable fit, but if he has only one, he starts with 3♣ (which is the only one that therefore may be shorter than 4 card).

Does anyone (I'm expecting it to be not the majority) have experience of such methods and can give any comment on them?

** in homage to the Avon gorge rock climbing guide for the description of the delicate climb "Fingerrip" which concludes "followed by a strenuous pull on a minute flake that is no longer there".
And no, I can't remember how I finished it.

This post has been edited by fromageGB: 2014-February-06, 04:48

[FrancesHinden]

Recommended auction on your sample hand:

2S Pass pass pass

The West hand is not a take-out double of 2S.

[helene_t]

I don't see the difference between the 2nd and the 3rd option in the first poll. I miss an option "natural, nonforcing but positive", i.e. what it means if 2NT is Lebensohl. Anyway, I bid 3♦ but if playing Lebensohl it is close to 2NT.

Agree with Frances, by the way.

[Trinidad]

Agree with Helene (including agreeing with Frances).

Rik

[Cyberyeti]

For us - (2♠)-2N (15-17)-P-P-P

[barmar]

Is the third question about 2NT by West or East?

[blackshoe]

I would prefer 2NT over 2♠ rather than double. If I had three small spades instead of the K third, I'd pass.

[fromageGB]

 helene_t, on 2014-February-05, 08:36, said:

I don't see the difference between the 2nd and the 3rd option in the first poll. I miss an option "natural, nonforcing but positive", i.e. what it means if 2NT is Lebensohl.

"3♣ to play" means "I have a longish club suit and I don't want you to bid"
"3♣ non-forcing but promising nothing other than some clubs" implies "playable in clubs, but probably also an unspecified elsewhere", as you would have for a Cansino 2♣ takeout of 1NT, for example.
This is close to what you mean, I think, but without a positive aspect. I shall change the wording.

[fromageGB]

 barmar, on 2014-February-05, 18:39, said:

Is the third question about 2NT by West or East?

East, ie the response to the takeout double.

[helene_t]

 fromageGB, on 2014-February-06, 04:46, said:

"3♣ to play" means "I have a longish club suit and I don't want you to bid"
"3♣ non-forcing but promising nothing other than some clubs" implies "playable in clubs, but probably also an unspecified elsewhere", as you would have for a Cansino 2♣ takeout of 1NT, for example.
This is close to what you mean, I think, but without a positive aspect. I shall change the wording.

Sounds like both meanings allow you to bid 3♣ with a yarb. If you play Lebensohl, 3♣ shows about 8-10 points.

[fromageGB]

 helene_t, on 2014-February-06, 05:05, said:

Sounds like both meanings allow you to bid 3♣ with a yarb. If you play Lebensohl, 3♣ shows about 8-10 points.

Maybe. I intended the questions to distinguish between bidding 3♣ that says you have a long suit and want to play there, and 3♣ that says I can play here if you like, but by all means try somewhere else if you prefer. You can't have everything, and I was wondering what the common perception was. Both of these, I imagine, could be on a yarborough.

I thought I played Lebensohl, and as I played it, a bid of 2NT was a prelude to a weak takeout in a long suit. If I then bid 3♦ over the 3♣ I expected partner to pass. Conversely, if I bid a direct 3♦ this was forcing. How strong that needed to be depended on what your requirement was for a takeout X. Mine was no more than an opening hand 1444 shape ideally. Consequently I would not dream of bidding a forcing 3♣ on your 8-10 count. If your minimum requirement was for the doubler to have a 17 count, then of course you lower the forcing point. Or perhaps you have 3♣ as intermediate and some other bid for a forcing call?

But the weak hands seem to cater for only a responder with a long suit. What does he do with a balanced hand? I am beginning to think that it may be better to play a "playable suit scramble", and was hoping someone who has used it could comment.

I was also imagining that some people may play transfer responses, because that can be done with both weak and strong hands, and can handle shorter suits or long suits.

[helene_t]

3♣ is not forcing in Lebensohl, it is something like 8-10. I have never heard of anyone who played 3♣ as forcing.

With forcing hands you have different routes to 3NT. You can bid it directly, via 2NT, you can bid 3♠, or you can bid 2NT and then 3♠. In this way you can distinguish between hands with and without a spade stopper, and with or without four hearts. With long clubs you will just have to sell it as a gf hand without four hearts and without a heart stopper (if that is what you have).

[barmar]

The main purpose of Lebensohl is to allow you to distinguish more ranges of responses: weak, constructive, invitational, and game forcing. Without it, you either have to lump constructive hands with weak and make a minimum response with both of them, or jump with both constructive and invitational hands (you can use cue bids for GF in both cases).

[helene_t]

It's worse than that, except for (2♥)-X-(pass)-3♠ you can't jump without being in game (or bypassing 3NT) so without lebensohl you (mostly) have only weak hands and GF hands.

[MrAce]

 FrancesHinden, on 2014-February-05, 08:25, said:

Recommended auction on your sample hand:

2S Pass pass pass

The West hand is not a take-out double of 2S.

Where is the sample hand ?

[Zelandakh]

 MrAce, on 2014-February-07, 10:21, said:

Where is the sample hand ?

Has been taken down. It was a 15hcp 3442 with ♠Kxx as I recall.

[fromageGB]

 MrAce, on 2014-February-07, 10:21, said:

Where is the sample hand ?

As Zel said. The hand was distracting people from answering the question.

[MrAce]

Ok thanks.

[jallerton]

Sorry, I can't answer the first poll question unless you edit the options to include "Natural, constructive" or similar.

Even the second question might need an additional option. Playing Lebensohl, what would you bid after (2♠)-dbl-(Pass) holding:
♠8xxx ♥8xx ♦Jxx ♣AKQ?

[blackshoe]

Pass, hoping to defeat 2♠. Yes, I know we don't have any spade tricks, but he's going to have to draw four rounds of trumps, and we may well have most of the outside strength. The only alternative I can see is 3NT, showing a balanced hand and denying a spade stopper, but that's not really palatable, IMO.