[shevek]

How do people play 1NT - 2♥ - 2♠ - 3♥ ?

Assume 3♥ natural here. (Some pairs play 2nd round transfers but let's ignore that)

Is is forcing or invitational? Does it show 5-4 or 5-5?

If it's forcing and 5-4, why didn't you use Stayman then jump to 3♠ to show this? (Or 3♥ if you play Smolen)

[awm]

It depends on the rest of your notrump structure, but I think 5/5 forcing is the usual meaning.

[Fluffy]

As Adam says 5/5 forcing is normal, on my system I have another bid for 5/5 GF (4♦) so this one has slam aspirations. Invitationals over 1NT opening are dumped.

[Cyberyeti]

Fluffy, on 2014-August-03, 02:38, said:

As Adam says 5/5 forcing is normal, on my system I have another bid for 5/5 GF (4♦) so this one has slam aspirations. Invitationals over 1NT opening are dumped.

Another wrinkle, if you don't play Smolen, 1N-2♥-2♠-3♥ as forcing 5-4 (and if it continues -3N-4♥ this is a mild slam try, 4m would be a more serious slam try), 4♦ as to play or definitely going on 5-5. We use 1N-2♣-2♦-3M as something else entirely (MSS), so that is not available for the 5-4s.

[Zelandakh]

I play it as 5-5 invitational but GF and 5-5 is by far the most common, especially in America. Opposite a UK partner you will see this quite often on a GF 5-4 shape as Stayman followed by 3M was traditionally not forcing. Obviously it makes little sense for this to be bid on a 5-4 if playing Smolen or Extended Stayman/Weissberger though.

[helene_t]

But if not playing Smolen, wouldn't a 5-4 majors hand just bid the 5-card major after the 2♦ response to Stayman, i.e. "inverted Smolen"? Or would that show some (41)44 hand or such?

[whereagles]

It really depends on the rest of your system. Can be 54, 55, inv, gf, etc. (French) Standard is 5-4 gf.

[Zelandakh]

helene_t, on 2014-August-04, 07:50, said:

But if not playing Smolen, wouldn't a 5-4 majors hand just bid the 5-card major after the 2♦ response to Stayman, i.e. "inverted Smolen"? Or would that show some (41)44 hand or such?

In traditional (circa 1970) Acol (pre-transfers) a rebid of 3M was invitational (non-forcing) and GF 5-4 hands rebid 3♦. This is the Weissberger convention I mentioned before. When transfers came in some dropped the convention but kept the non-forcing 3M rebids. Now they had to show 5-4 hands via a transfer instead. And some just transfer on auto-pilot when holding a 5 card major...

[kenberg]

I have known people to play it as 5-4 invitational but this has its problems. Suppose you are opener with a 15 count, two spades and three hearts. partner gets you to 3♥ on his invitational 5/4. You do what? There is a good chance that what you do is go down. Otherwise put, if you are not going down maybe partner had more than an invitational hand.

But then just what are you to do with an invitational hand with five spades and four hearts? Myself, I like 1NT-2♣-2♦-2♠ to be an invitational hand with five spades and four hearts. OK, there are times when you want to play this as weak, but I prefer to give up the weak meaning rather than to get us to the 3 level when I have only invitational values and am not assured of a fit .With the weak 5/4 I trf to spades and pass.

In the different case, with five hearts, four spades and invitational values, transfer to hearts and then bid 2♠ seems right.

So: If I get my way, then I can bid the five spade-four heart invitational hand by starting with 2♣, and I Smolen with 5/4 forcing, so the transfer to spades followed by 3♥ is 5-5 forcing. After which 3♠ accepts spades and we can then cue bid, while an immediate cue bid over 3♥ accepts hearts.

[aguahombre]

helene_t, on 2014-August-04, 07:50, said:

But if not playing Smolen, wouldn't a 5-4 majors hand just bid the 5-card major after the 2♦ response to Stayman, i.e. "inverted Smolen"? Or would that show some (41)44 hand or such?

yes. This leads to Stayman with 4-card major regardless of the length of the other major, and no Transfer with 4 of other major if responder intends to bid again.

[EricK]

If you don't want to play anything too fancy or hard to remember, you can handle pretty much all hands with both majors as follows:

5-4 weak 2♥
4-5 weak 2♣ 2♦ 2♥
5-5 weak 2♣ 2♦ 2♥

5-4 invitational 2♣ 2♦ 2♠
4-5 invitational 2♦ 2♥ 2♠
5-5 invitational 2♥ 2♠ 3♥

5-4 GF 2♣ 2♦ 3♥
4-5 GF 2♣ 2♦ 3♠
5-5 GF 2♥ 2♠ 4♥

Over Stayman, if partner doesn't bid 2♦ you pass, raise or bid game as appropriate.

Slam invitational hands can go via Smolen followed by a further bid.

[bluechip10]

shevek, on 2014-August-02, 23:18, said:

How do people play 1NT - 2♥ - 2♠ - 3♥ ?

Assume 3♥ natural here. (Some pairs play 2nd round transfers but let's ignore that)

Is is forcing or invitational? Does it show 5-4 or 5-5?

If it's forcing and 5-4, why didn't you use Stayman then jump to 3♠ to show this? (Or 3♥ if you play Smolen)

5/5 and forcing to game.

[jallerton]

awm, on 2014-August-02, 23:47, said:

It depends on the rest of your notrump structure, but I think 5/5 forcing is the usual meaning.

Yes, the important points is that it depends on the rest of your system. The "usual meaning" is different in different places.

When agreeing on a system of responses to 1NT, it's important to understand how to distinguish between 5/4 FG, 5/5 FG, 4/5 FG, plus sign-off, invitational and slam try hands of the same shape. There are plenty of different variations and whilst some may be theoretically sounder than others, the important thing is to be on the same wavelength as partner.

[lowerline]

It must be 5-5 because there is no logic in it being 5-4... With invitational 5♠4♥ it goes 1nt-2♣-2♦-2♠. With invitational 5♥4♠ it goes 1nt-2♦-2♥-2♠. With forcing 5-4 it goes 1nt-2♣-2♦-3Major (Smolen or natural).

The only choice to make is forcing or invitational. Forcing is indeed the standard. Though I like to play it invitational. With 5-5 and slam interest I bid 1nt-2♣-2♦-4minor showing shortness. If game is enough I bid 1nt-2♥-2♠-4♥ choice of games.

S.

[Cyberyeti]

lowerline, on 2014-August-05, 07:16, said:

It must be 5-5 because there is no logic in it being 5-4... With invitational 5♠4♥ it goes 1nt-2♣-2♦-2♠. With invitational 5♥4♠ it goes 1nt-2♦-2♥-2♠. With forcing 5-4 it goes 1nt-2♣-2♦-3Major (Smolen or natural).

Completely depends on your methods, 1N-2♣-2♦-2♠ is almost universally to play not invitational in the UK.