[keithhus]

advice would be appreciated.

I bid 4th suit with xxx. Partner bid 3 NT. Contract badly down.
I understood that bidding 4th suit is asking partner if he has a stopper in that suit. If I have a stopper I would bid NT.
Partner advised that bidding 4th suit advises that I have a stopper.
This is not blame culture, but which understanding is correct, or is it down to partnership agreement? Thanks

[ahydra]

Normally, 4th suit does not explicitly ask for a stopper, though that is one of the principal uses. It simply asks for more information. Partner is expected to describe his hand, and should bid NT ONLY if he has a stopper.

For example
1H-1S; 2D-3C*
3D = 5-5 reds
3H = nothing special to add; no stop in clubs
3S = 3-card support (3541)
3NT = nothing special to add; stop in clubs
4C = ??? (probably a strong 0544)
4D = strong with a ton of shape (6-5, 6-6)
4H = strong 6-4/7-4

Of course, you could agree to play 4SF as showing a stopper if you wanted, but I wouldn't recommend it - if for instance your stopper is Kx, you want to be playing NT from your side.

ahydra

[wank]

ahydra, on 2015-April-30, 05:30, said:

Normally, 4th suit does not explicitly ask for a stopper, though that is one of the principal uses. It simply asks for more information. Partner is expected to describe his hand, and should bid NT ONLY if he has a stopper.

For example
1H-1S; 2D-3C*
3D = 5-5 reds
3H = nothing special to add; no stop in clubs
3S = 3-card support (3541)
3NT = nothing special to add; stop in clubs
4C = ??? (probably a strong 0544)
4D = strong with a ton of shape (6-5, 6-6)
4H = strong 6-4/7-4

Of course, you could agree to play 4SF as showing a stopper if you wanted, but I wouldn't recommend it - if for instance your stopper is Kx, you want to be playing NT from your side.

ahydra

what you said it basically correct, but you have a few rather idiosyncratic treatments in there. 4H for example would for normal people be fast arrival and weaker than bidding 3h and 4h. 3S would be a useful doubleton. 4nt which you haven't mentioned should be a club stop and extra values (no other bid available to show that).

to the OP you need to decide how forcing you play 4sf. almost all decent players these days play it as forcing to game.

[ahydra]

wank, on 2015-April-30, 05:35, said:

what you said it basically correct, but you have a few rather idiosyncratic treatments in there. 4H for example would for normal people be fast arrival and weaker than bidding 3h and 4h. 3S would be a useful doubleton. 4nt which you haven't mentioned should be a club stop and extra values (no other bid available to show that).

to the OP you need to decide how forcing you play 4sf. almost all decent players these days play it as forcing to game.

What's the default rebid then? (say a min 2542 with no club stop) I play opener's first suit as default rebid, though other treatments are available e.g. next step up.

Some goood points here: 4NT should be natural - not Blackwood! I've seen people play this as RKC in the 4th suit , but then if you have say an 18-count 1543 you'll be stuck for a bid. And definitely play 4SF as GF, it helps a lot with slam investigations. (My partner unfortunately refuses to join us in the modern age, claiming that looking for a stop for 2NT is a worthwhile exercise. It's helped us exactly once in the 4+ years we've been playing, and in the meantime I keep having to sigh loudly when holding a slam interest hand and not be able to make a sensible GF bid)

ahydra

[helene_t]

If playing Acol (or any other mainstream natural system for that matter), you can't play fsf as showing a stopper. You simply need to have a way to show a game forcing hand with no clear direction. If the auction starts, for example:
1♥-1♠
2♦-?
then the only forcing bid below 3NT is 3♣, so responder needs to be able to bid that with any hand that wants to be in game yet doesn't want to bypass 3NT. You will typically have a hand with no clear direction (maybe five spades, maybe half a club stopper, maybe doubleton heart support) but you could also have a hand with good support for hearts and slam interest. Or maybe a hand suitable for a notrump bid but too strong for 3NT.

But when opener bids the fourth suit it is different:
1♣-1♠
2♣-2♦
2♥*
Here you could play 2♥ as a waiting bid with no clear preference, maybe a questionable heart stopper plus doubleton spade support or something like that. You could also play it as five hearts + six club but not enough to reverse.

1♦-1♥
1♠-1NT
2♣*
My impression is that most English club players play this as fsf but I don't think it is a good idea, except maybe that it simplifies matters if you have the agreement that the fourth suit is always artificial. In my opinion it is better to play it as natural. Responder should have a club stopper for his 1NT bid so it isn't essential to be able to ask for it. Opener is limited by his 1♠ bid so he can barely have a gf. Mainstream is to play this 2♣ bid as natural. A mild game try with a 4144 shape, something like 15-16 points. Responder could esialy have club length on this auction and if he is minimal then 2♣ may well be the last making contract.

[mikeh]

ahydra, on 2015-April-30, 05:45, said:

What's the default rebid then? (say a min 2542 with no club stop) I play opener's first suit as default rebid, though other treatments are available e.g. next step up.



ahydra

My style, which I learned from a BW discussion many years ago, is to use opener's cheaper rebid as a punt.

So 1H 1S 2D 3C, with say xx AQxxx AQxx xx, bid 3♦.

1D 1H 1S 2C, with say AQxx xx AQxxx xx, bid 2♦.

The idea is pretty sensible...whatever we do will be a distortion. We can't support partner with xx, we can't bid NT with xx in the side suit, so we choose a distortion no matter what we do and a very useful rule, in all kinds of situations, is to make your distortion as cheaply as possible. In fact, when distorting the hand, there are two factors to consider: make the smallest distortion possible, and make the cheapest distortion possible. The former because it minimizes the harm likely to flow, and the latter because often times, especially in 4SF auctions, we want to maximize bidding space for partner, and for us.