[mike777]

 Elianna, on 2016-December-04, 00:39, said:

I may not be making myself clear: My point was that, like the video with President Obama talking to the young woman, that what the mayor said got twisted. Trying to allow residents to vote on local politics is a far cry from allowing them to vote in national elections. I would go so far and not call it "compromised" because I think that undocumented workers who are residents in a given town are contributing to the town by working hard, paying local taxes - mostly in the form of sales taxes - and contributing to the town's way of life. I think that allowing them to vote in local elections would make them better residents (more willing to do things for the good of the town) and I think that they would deserve it just as much as someone lucky enough to be born in the US who moves to that town.

So I was not saying the mayor encouraged illegal activity - he wanted to allow people to vote in local elections (make something legal) but that doesn't mean that he was encouraging people to vote WITHOUT it being made legal.

I disagree that your questions are the questions that should be asked. I would ask: How can people be such bad readers that they miss the word local when reading that article, and get so angry that they pass it along to others who either also can't read, or don't bother to read and just believe whatever they're told. And then how people use evidence of ONE mayor advocating letting undocumented RESIDENTS vote in LOCAL elections and use that as possible proof that 3 million undocumented workers in CA voted in NATIONAL elections when these two are completely unrelated. I think that the problem is not just believing everything one reads/is told, but critical reasoning. Both in the area of critiquing the reasoning of others (not just disbelieving them because blah), and also in inductive reasoning: If A-> B that doesn't prove some unrelated C.

I showed the link to say that it wasn't completely made up, but twisted and misunderstood (or misrepresented), not in support of that ludicrous claim.

late to this topic, not sure what the issue is here, local elections and national elections are often, very often combined at the exact same time, no difference. An argument could be made that all, repeat all elections are local in nature so again not sure what the issue is here.


TO rephrase to claim that local and national elections are "completely unrelated" is false on its face. Now whether anyone should be allowed to vote is an interesting topic.
Whether the rest of the country should try and emulate CA, I state I lived in for many years is an interesting topic.

[cherdano]

 jonottawa, on 2016-December-04, 15:20, said:

I wish the harassment of Kaitlyn would stop. I've privately messaged one forum mod to TRY to get a handle on the personal attacks in here, but to no avail (even though that's the FIRST rule of the Water Cooler.)

Are you saying I shouldn't have pointed out that your views about the behaviour of undocumented immigrants are hard to explain unless you are a racist? Or are you taking back your claims about large-scale voter fraud by non-citizens in this year's US presidential election?

[cherdano]

Btw, what is Kaitlyn's prior account name?

[jonottawa]

Adam, if I snuck into China or Afghanistan or Nigeria or Israel or Japan or Mexico or Korea (either one) and demanded government services and protested against the government, how would I be treated?



The question is not how would I react to someone with an ISIS hat in America, the question is how would I react to someone with an ISIS hat in Afghanistan or Pakistan or Iraq.

The answer is, I'd realize that I'm in HIS country & that I have no right to impose MY values on HIM in HIS country. (And I'd pray that I got out of there alive.)

And nobody's claiming there's a conspiracy, per se. But judging from that website (with links to mainstream news sources,) there have been MANY MANY instances where people made stuff up or staged things in order to smear President Trump & his supporters. Why? Maybe for attention. Maybe to influence public opinion. There are many possible explanations.

President Trump loves women & has hired a lot of them. President Trump loves legal immigrants & has hired a lot of them. President Trump loves the US Military & has pledged to restore it to greatness & they love him. President Trump has nothing against disabled people (the disabled smear is a complete lie, unless you think that people with physical handicaps should be immune from being mocked for being bad JOURNALISTS.)



President Trump wants to enforce the border & existing immigration law. He didn't call ALL Mexicans rapists. He opined that a judge who is a member of the San Diego La Raza Lawyers Association might have some trouble being objective when adjudicating a case involving someone who wants to deport (or encourage the self-deportation of) millions of Mexican citizens living in the US illegally. You can disagree with that argument, but it's not an absurd argument. Do you think if I were involved in a dispute & mikeh were the mediator that he'd give ME a fair shake? Probably not. I certainly wouldn't want to chance it. I'd ask him to recuse himself.

And no, he hasn't appointed any racists or anti-Semites to anything.

[mike777]

 awm, on 2016-December-04, 15:22, said:

People on the right seem to think there is some vast liberal conspiracy to make Trump and his supporters look bad. Why would we bother? Trump does an ample job making himself look bad without any such conspiracy -- most of Clinton's negative ads this campaign were just playing back Trump's own awful statements about women, immigrants, soldiers, the disabled, etc.

As for individual liberals there is indeed some hostility. To try and explain this to the other side...

Say you're walking around your community and you see a brown skinned, heavily bearded man wearing a black hat with white lettering. The hat says "ISIS: Death to America!"

Does this man make you feel uncomfortable? Do you think he may be up to no good? Are you vaguely bothered by his choice of hat, even though we have (of course) free speech in this country? If you're the more confrontational sort, might you be tempted to say something nasty to this man? Or maybe just ask him how he can wear such a hat or support such an organization? If he runs a shop in town might you be tempted not to shop there?

These are the reactions that American minorities feel when they see a white man wearing a Trump hat. It's a statement that they want me and my family out of "their" country, that they blame us for things, that they want to "make America white again." Why do we feel that way? Because they are supporting a man who has been VERY EXPLICIT that Mexicans are rapists and murderers and we ought to build a wall to keep them out, and that when he says "Mexicans" he includes Americans of Mexican descent (like judge Curiel of Indiana). And he has hurled similar rhetoric at many other minorities. He had support from American Nazis and the KKK, and while he obviously cannot be responsible for every one of his supporters, he has gone ahead and appointed noted racists and anti-Semites to top positions in his government! So the support is not just a one-way thing here.

Interesting post, yet one more reason many as you point out distrust when great power is given to the central government. Sometimes the guy or gal you prefer does, will not run that government the way you feel is best.


Yet this seems to be the mantra of the democratic party and their supporters, more power...this was the mantra by some who voted for Trump, protect me, protect my job ( see Carrier)..

[jonottawa]

Now let's get back to the REAL issue, is it Bernie's fault that President Trump won the election?

Dem blame game rages over Clinton loss

[diana_eva]

 jonottawa, on 2016-December-04, 16:09, said:

Adam, if I snuck into China or Afghanistan or Nigeria or Israel or Japan or Mexico or Korea (either one) and demanded government services and protested against the government, how would I be treated?

How about if you snuck into a bridge forum, made zero bridge contribution to the bridge community and whined about how you are treated for posting non-bridge stuff in the only off-topic forum of many? Maybe the rest of the community feels you should make some effort to fit in.

[jonottawa]

 diana_eva, on 2016-December-04, 16:49, said:

How about if you snuck into a bridge forum, made zero bridge contribution to the bridge community and whined about how you are treated for posting non-bridge stuff in the only off-topic forum of many? Maybe the rest of the community feels you should make some effort to fit in.

Diana, I'd post in the bridge section of the forum, but my signature (a direct quote, as everyone knows) would probably get me banned. As I recall the WC has looser rules than the rest of the forum.

But if it makes you feel better I will stop complaining about the harassment of Kaitlyn and about the incredibly nasty tone of and repeated personal attacks by my adversaries here. You have made your position clear.

[Winstonm]

 mikeh, on 2016-December-04, 15:24, said:

Kaitlyn

Richard has challenged you on this notion. The videos were, irrc, done by the same criminal who put together the fraudulently edited Planned Parenthood videos and have been shown to be just as false.

On that one: https://www.bloomber...dal-may-be-over

As for O'Keefe, even Fox has reported his criminal record, that long predates the ACORN and PP frauds, yet I strongly suspect that you accept his lies as facts.

I keep thinking that surely just once....just once...you'd pause for one minute while typing your beliefs and ask....is this true? Can I check?

But no, so far you are batting 100%.

As a simple example of how this ignorance and laziness plays out...you have repeatedly said that you voted for what even you agree is a vile, dangerous, despicable excuse for a human being to be your President because, awful though he will be, he won't be as bad as HRC.

I challenge you to list the facts on which you base that value judgement. Note that I am not interested in arguing the value-based portion of that. Your view is as entitled to respect as mine, and more, since you are a US citizen and I am not.

However, I am also challenging you to google each of the facts that you set out.

You will absolutely find confirmation for all of these facts, but look at which sources say what. Are there sources that are neutral that confirm? The sites that support you...what are the 'facts' and the sources?

I doubt that you will do this because you are lazy, but I hope I am wrong.

I no longer buy her schtick. You can't purposefully remain that clueless without a malicious motivation.

[cherdano]

 jonottawa, on 2016-December-04, 16:09, said:

President Trump loves women & has hired a lot of them.

Indeed, he loves women so much that he bought a beauty pageant so he could walk into the teenage contestants' changing rooms while they were naked and pretend that's a normal thing to do.

Quote

President Trump loves legal immigrants & has hired a lot of them.

I thought he loves Melania? (Who came to the US as an illegal immigrant.)

Quote

And no, he hasn't appointed any racists or anti-Semites to anything.

It's just bad luck for Trump that his most ardent supporters on twitter and bridge forums are racists. Has nothing to do with his campaign!

[awm]

My family has been here for four generations. My grandparents' grandparents were refugees from places in eastern Europe where people of their faith were considered unwelcome, and sometimes brutally murdered for being non-christians. Back in the late 19th century, my grandparents' grandparents were allowed into the US even though they were viewed as "different" from most Americans.

They were not very educated, but they worked hard. My grandparents parents grew up in the US, but some of them arrived here as children. One great grandfather was a barber, another worked for the post office. One was a doctor and among the first to give the polio vaccine.

Both my grandfathers served in the US army in the 2nd world war. Both graduated college. One remained in the reserves for decades afterward. My father was lucky to get a desk job with the Navy during Vietnam and never saw active duty, but he spent his career teaching mathematics to future naval officers at the US Naval Academy.

I'm an American. I've barely lived anywhere else.

But when our president appoints "white nationalists" to the government, when he runs ads showing Clinton next to a star of David and a pile of money saying she is corrupt, when he runs a TV ad blaming economic woes in America on "Jewish bankers", when his supporters talk about allowing "only Christian refugees" into the country or requiring members of a religious faith to register with the government and suggests surveillance of their place of worship...

When these things happen, I do not feel welcome in my country. I don't feel proud to be American when America elects such a man. Honestly I feel scared that just maybe, the pogroms my grandparents grandparents fled in Poland and Austria and Russia just might happen here as well. It makes me sad because I loved the place I thought my country was, but not so much the place that almost half of voters seem to want it to become.

[diana_eva]

 jonottawa, on 2016-December-04, 17:03, said:

Diana, I'd post in the bridge section of the forum, but my signature (a direct quote, as everyone knows) would probably get me banned.

BS as usual. I can teach you how to delete your signature if that's what worries you.

[jonottawa]

 awm, on 2016-December-04, 17:18, said:

It makes me sad because I loved the place I thought my country was, but not so much the place that almost half of voters seem to want it to become.

Not quite. Half the voters loved what their country was but not so much the place it has become. That's why the slogan is Make America Great Again.

[cherdano]

 jonottawa, on 2016-December-04, 17:29, said:

Not quite. Half the voters loved what their country was but not so much the place it has become. That's why the slogan is Make America Great Again.

When, exactly, was America great?

[hrothgar]

 jonottawa, on 2016-December-04, 17:03, said:

Diana, I'd post in the bridge section of the forum, but my signature (a direct quote, as everyone knows) would probably get me banned. As I recall the WC has looser rules than the rest of the forum.

And yet you didn't post anything in the bridge related forums for years before you changed your sig...

[jonottawa]

First Brexit, then Trump, now Italy faces its political shockwave

Turns out folks just aren't that into Globalism.



Cool beans, I can hang out in the Advanced Members Lounge now!

[MrAce]

 jonottawa, on 2016-December-04, 16:09, said:

..........The answer is, I'd realize that I'm in HIS country & that I have no right to impose MY values on HIM in HIS country. (And I'd pray that I got out of there alive.)...........

Actually you are right!
After D.T, illegal immigrants realized that they are in YOUR country and started to pay more respect to YOUR values.
Two nights ago in a local bar, a drunk illegal immigrant, instead of posing HIS values, decided to respect YOURS, and grabbed a waitress, a white married young woman, by her tits, and treated her like a bitch!
4 other DISRESPECTFUL immigrants, including myself, who has no RESPECT to YOUR VALUES, had to stop the man from paying his respect to YOUR values!

This would have been my exact testimony, had the cops arrived. Manager called them but they never showed up. Perhaps Texas Law Enforcement also respects YOUR VALUES and seen it as a normal behavior or they were just too busy as usual. Only God knows!

Of course you can argue that this is not YOUR VALUE, just because the guy was not a star but a drunk immigrant! But life ain't perfect and I did not ask you to vote for that immigrant anyway!

[mike777]

 jonottawa, on 2016-December-04, 17:43, said:

First Brexit, then Trump, now Italy faces its political shockwave

Turns out folks just aren't that into Globalism.



Cool beans, I can hang out in the Advanced Members Lounge now!

Ya not sure why so many in the uSA, UK, Italy are not into globalism.....they invented it, well not really but but none of these countries would exist without it.

----


See the Bronze age, Cyprus and how Bronze was made......globalism.

[Kaitlyn S]

 mikeh, on 2016-December-04, 15:24, said:

You will absolutely find confirmation for all of these facts, but look at which sources say what. Are there sources that are neutral that confirm? The sites that support you...what are the 'facts' and the sources?

I doubt that you will do this because you are lazy, but I hope I am wrong.

 Winstonm, on 2016-December-04, 17:07, said:

I no longer buy her schtick. You can't purposefully remain that clueless without a malicious motivation.

I appreciate you guys trying to show me the light, that the liberals have it all right and I've been a fool who has listened to charlatans. Mind you, there are many that are still calling your side the charlatans. But you have tried.

And I had this weird impression that the "Water Cooler" is a place where people can toss around ideas. You are telling me instead that I need to do more research than is required for a typical college course. While I'm not disputing that I'm somewhat lazy, if I'm going to something that feels like work in my free time, I would prefer to create my Bidding Problems for I/N players and perhaps maybe a few bridge movies for players to enjoy. I realize that being well informed is good. However, I've done a lot of political research and look where it has got me. I'm being told that I've wasted probably thousands of hours looking at the "wrong" shows and websites. So far I've received positive feedback on my bridge problems so I don't feel like that is time wasted.

Trust me when I tell you that I'm not being malicious and it was not a schtick. I simply posted my ideas. You told me that my ideas are based on ignorance. I know my ideas are based on very much research; however you are telling me that my research has all been misguided. It is possible that you're right but at this point I really don't feel like starting over. Maybe someday, maybe soon. But how would you feel if you had put thousands of hours into something and then been told by several people that it was all a sham? Be serious now.

[Kaitlyn S]

 MrAce, on 2016-December-04, 19:03, said:

Two nights ago in a local bar, a drunk illegal immigrant, instead of posing HIS values, decided to respect YOURS, and grabbed a waitress, a white married young woman, by her tits, and treated her like a bitch!

Isn't that kind of what happened in Germany, except it was a lot of immigrants?