[Cyberyeti]

I'm used to giving my partner horrible problems in the auction, but this was evil:

---

4♦ is leaping michaels, diamonds and a major and by agreement better than most people play it, it is forcing. You basically have to guess, what do you reckon ?

[helene_t]

If I have to guess then 6♦. Actually I havent discussed follow ups with any partner so 6♦ is probably what I would bid. Ton Bakkeren wrote once in the Dutch Bridge magazine that 4nt is a general try for 6♦, maybe that would elicit a cuebid in clubs, that might be useful.

[gszes]

 helene_t, on 2016-March-13, 17:51, said:

If I have to guess then 6♦. Actually I havent discussed follow ups with any partner so 6♦ is probably what I would bid. Ton Bakkeren wrote once in the Dutch Bridge magazine that 4nt is a general try for 6♦, maybe that would elicit a cuebid in clubs, that might be useful.

echo the 6d bid too hard to imagine many hands with Axxxx diamonds where partner might feel confident forcing to 5 level. If we lose more than 1 trick maybe our standards need to change some but preempts work sometimes that's why we do them.

[wank]

i think 6d is crazy.

i'll bid 4h and 5d over 4s and hope it makes.

[rmnka447]

 wank, on 2016-March-13, 20:57, said:

i think 6d is crazy.

i'll bid 4h and 5d over 4s and hope it makes.

I agree. With the major unknown, I'm assuming partner will "correct" if not holding ♥ since I may hold ♥ and ♠ and not want to bypass 4 ♥ if that's leaping michaeler's suit. There's no way to know if partner has a ♣ control or the other appropriate As if he/she does have the ♣ control. Better to try to go to a good versus perfect spot.

[Cyberyeti]

 gszes, on 2016-March-13, 20:09, said:

echo the 6d bid too hard to imagine many hands with Axxxx diamonds where partner might feel confident forcing to 5 level. If we lose more than 1 trick maybe our standards need to change some but preempts work sometimes that's why we do them.

I think your last comment is off the mark, partner can have a 2 loser hand and this can still go down (AKQJx, void, AJ10xx, KQx 6♦ goes off on the club ruff)

FWIW my partner blasted 6♦, I'll say whether this was successful later once there are more comments.

What do people think 4N and 5♣ would mean undiscussed ?

[Zelandakh]

 Cyberyeti, on 2016-March-13, 17:15, said:

4♦ is leaping michaels, diamonds and a major and by agreement better than most people play it, it is forcing. You basically have to guess, what do you reckon ?

I reckon you should consider playing 4♣ as diamonds + a major and 4♦ for the majors.

[rhm]

 Zelandakh, on 2016-March-14, 05:36, said:

I reckon you should consider playing 4♣ as diamonds + a major and 4♦ for the majors.

I know you have an infinite memory capacity for slight improvements which will turn out to be crucial every second leap year at best

Rainer Herrmann

[rhm]

 rmnka447, on 2016-March-13, 21:59, said:

I agree. With the major unknown, I'm assuming partner will "correct" if not holding ♥ since I may hold ♥ and ♠ and not want to bypass 4 ♥ if that's leaping michaeler's suit. There's no way to know if partner has a ♣ control or the other appropriate As if he/she does have the ♣ control. Better to try to go to a good versus perfect spot.

Come on.
Your partner has made a strong game forcing bid missing those diamond honors staring in your face and you are telling me we are in grave danger loosing the first 2 tricks in clubs?
If partner holds six solid spades, 2 small clubs and 5 diamonds to the ace jack, he should have bid 4♠, because 4♦ is convention abuse.
If there is a perfect spot it is likely 7♦ or an even higher contract, but you can do no more than bidding 6♦.
Of course we might belong in 7♥ from my side because 7♦ gets beaten by a Lightner DBL.
If the perfect spot is game, look for a new partner.

Rainer Herrmann

[Zelandakh]

 rhm, on 2016-March-14, 06:06, said:

I know you have an infinite memory capacity for slight improvements which will turn out to be crucial every second leap year at best

Not infinite but this is a very common and widely played convention that is not at all difficult to remember.

[Cyberyeti]

 Zelandakh, on 2016-March-14, 06:21, said:

Not infinite but this is a very common and widely played convention that is not at all difficult to remember.

I prefer 4♣ for the majors so that we can play in the 6-2 rather than the 5-2 when opener is 6-5, but it does cause problems with the 4♦ bid

[Cyberyeti]

 rhm, on 2016-March-14, 06:10, said:

Come on.
Your partner has made a strong game forcing bid missing those diamond honors staring in your face and you are telling me we are in grave danger loosing the first 2 tricks in clubs?
If partner holds six solid spades, 2 small clubs and 5 diamonds to the ace jack, he should have bid 4♠, because 4♦ is convention abuse.
If there is a perfect spot it is likely 7♦ or an even higher contract, but you can do no more than bidding 6♦.
Of course we might belong in 7♥ from my side because 7♦ gets beaten by a Lightner DBL.
If the perfect spot is game, look for a new partner.

Rainer Herrmann

AKQJx, A, AJ109x, Qx Impossible ? I know I'd LM on that

[gszes]

 Cyberyeti, on 2016-March-14, 02:56, said:

I think your last comment is off the mark, partner can have a 2 loser hand and this can still go down (AKQJx, void, AJ10xx, KQx 6♦ goes off on the club ruff)

FWIW my partner blasted 6♦, I'll say whether this was successful later once there are more comments.

What do people think 4N and 5♣ would mean undiscussed ?

I said it was hard to imagine too many hands not that it was impossible:)) it is still a game of probability and catering to low % probabilities is a losing position in the long run.

[rhm]

 Cyberyeti, on 2016-March-14, 02:56, said:

I think your last comment is off the mark, partner can have a 2 loser hand and this can still go down (AKQJx, void, AJ10xx, KQx 6♦ goes off on the club ruff)

If you are not deaf and blind calling this hand a two loser hand after this start sounds to me highly optimistic.
Also it is anything but clear whether you should bid 4♦ with this hand.
My preference is 3NT, But I admit this will not always hit the jackpot either.

Rainer Herrmann

[rhm]

 Cyberyeti, on 2016-March-14, 06:34, said:

AKQJx, A, AJ109x, Qx Impossible ? I know I'd LM on that

This is borderline for 4♦.
The odds are very heavily against it anyway.
If you start constructing such hands preempts will be very effective against you, no matter what clever conventions you play and how strong.
I think chances that you will tomorrow get overrun by a bus are higher than partner holding this particular hand.

Rainer Herrmann

[Cyberyeti]

 rhm, on 2016-March-14, 08:05, said:

If you are not deaf and blind calling this hand a two loser hand after this start sounds to me highly optimistic.
Also it is anything but clear whether you should bid 4♦ with this hand.
My preference is 3NT, But I admit this will not always hit the jackpot either.

Rainer Herrmann

It needs partner to have a singleton club and Q♦ to have a shot at a slam, not unlikely.

[Charlie Yu]

 rhm, on 2016-March-14, 08:13, said:

This is borderline for 4♦.
The odds are very heavily against it anyway.
If you start constructing such hands preempts will be very effective against you, no matter what clever conventions you play and how strong.
I think chances that you will tomorrow get overrun by a bus are higher than partner holding this particular hand.

Rainer Herrmann

Why would this be borderline? What does p do with AKQxx xx Axxxx x?

[Cyberyeti]

 Charlie Yu, on 2016-March-14, 18:17, said:

Why would this be borderline? What does p do with AKQxx xx Axxxx x?

Overcalls 3♠

[MinorKid]

I think that partner has a decent hand, but not strong enough such that he makes game on his own.

Mainly because
- He has already catered you for your 8 HCP.
- He is at the balancing seat.
- He opted not to double.

So 4♥ / 5♦ seems enough for me. Of course if there are slam try convention to use such as 4NT OR 5♣, use it.

[bigbenvic]

 MinorKid, on 2016-March-15, 22:50, said:

I think that partner has a decent hand, but not strong enough such that he makes game on his own.

Except that OP states it is forcing and better than most people play it!

I have a monster, partner has a GF opposite my hand, I have no mechanism to find out about the clubs, which is a problem so I think I just want to bid 6 and apologise if it's off. Basically my KQ in trumps has to make up 1 loser, the void spade probably solves the 4th, 5th 6th etc round of spades. If he has the reds then my KH is worth so much more but I've no way to tell.

4NT undiscussed is probably Blackwood in Diamonds, with the possibility of bidding 6H (correctible to 6S later) 5C I'd take as a slam try in one of the majors, prepared to play 5 in the "wrong" one. What that would mean for a jump to 5H or 5S over 4D I have no idea.