[aguahombre]

StevenG, on 2016-March-25, 02:47, said:

Am I misunderstanding something? I would have thought it to be the normal method for weaker players. (My observation comes from bridge locally and in the BBO Acol Club).

Yes. Your observation over there is the same as mine over here. 13 random cards + 13 points = Double for all inexperienced players at the club except those who have listened to my rants and changed their ways.

I would not expect or remotely hope for an alert; they haven't a clue that it might be unusual. If they did, they would also stop doing it.

[FrancesHinden]

My experience is that

- people double all the time with balanced weak NTs with or without four cards in one or both majors. They tend to have four hearts when they double 1S, and to have 3 spades when they double 1H, but that's about it.

- I see this across the country and (to some extent) across a wide range of standards

- as already suggested by a couple of others, those who do it have absolutely no idea that this isn't 'standard' or 'normal' or 'potentially unexpected'. In fact, the idea of doubling particularly a 1C opening on any balanced hand is becoming very popular with all standards of player.

[gnasher]

Cyberyeti, on 2016-March-24, 17:00, said:

The regulation assumes a particular type of convention card that is used in tournaments but often not in local events and clubs.
...
Surely you shouldn't be able to escape the intent of the regulation (that opps should be able to easily see that you play this and know in advance) simply by using an older style of convention card.

As usual, the L&EC has thought of this:

Blue Book 3 B 1
(a) The tournament organiser or TD may allow the use of a simplified system card, such as the front of an EBU scorecard, if the partnership’s methods are simple enough to be adequately described in this form
(b) The EBU 20B system card is the standard EBU card. An old style EBU20A may also be used

If their methods include something that should be described under "Aspects of system which opponents should note", they fail the test in (a), so they must have either an EBU 20B or an EBU 20A.

I realise that this answer isn't of much practical use, but you can't really have been hoping that the rules would help you in this situation. The only good answer is to find a better game.

[barmar]

gnasher, on 2016-March-28, 11:28, said:

If their methods include something that should be described under "Aspects of system which opponents should note", they fail the test in (a), so they must have either an EBU 20B or an EBU 20A.

So like I said, if they have something in their system that should be noted on the system card, but isn't alertable, they violate the SC regulation, but not the alert regulation. Violating the SC regulation doesn't obligate them to make up their own alerts.

[barmar]

FrancesHinden, on 2016-March-28, 10:41, said:

- I see this across the country and (to some extent) across a wide range of standards

Me, too. One of the better players espouses it so much that many of us have been calling it a "JLD", where "JL" is his initials.

[Cyberyeti]

gnasher, on 2016-March-28, 11:28, said:

I realise that this answer isn't of much practical use, but you can't really have been hoping that the rules would help you in this situation. The only good answer is to find a better game.

I let it go at the time, so was not expecting help, but was interested in knowing for when I met it next.

This was our Corwen qualifier, there wasn't a better game available.

[gordontd]

Cyberyeti, on 2016-March-29, 06:52, said:

This was our Corwen qualifier, there wasn't a better game available.

Others were probably playing in the Portland Pairs.

[Cyberyeti]

gordontd, on 2016-March-29, 07:44, said:

Others were probably playing in the Portland Pairs.

Neither partner nor I fancied wearing a skirt.

I don't believe any norfolk pairs played in the portland.

[Zelandakh]

I am sure you look quite fetching in a dress CY. You could always pick up a kilt and see if they let you in with that - it's a long way from Norfolk to Scotland.

[VixTD]

Cyberyeti, on 2016-March-29, 06:52, said:

I let it go at the time, so was not expecting help, but was interested in knowing for when I met it next.

Had I been directing, I would have adjusted the score if I thought you'd been damaged by their failure to disclose their methods. It's all very well not insisting that pairs produce two fully completed approved convention cards in certain competitions (particularly club games), but if failure to do so disadvantages innocent competitors, those competitors should be protected.

I suppose if they didn't have cards and alerted it instead, I'd let them do that, but I don't think it's right.

[aguahombre]

FrancesHinden, on 2016-March-28, 10:41, said:

My experience is that

They tend to have four hearts when they double 1S, and to have 3 spades when they double 1H, but that's about it.

Your experience is with a higher level of club players than my experience. (Refusing to use a smiley face).

[Cyberyeti]

Zelandakh, on 2016-March-29, 08:07, said:

I am sure you look quite fetching in a dress CY. You could always pick up a kilt and see if they let you in with that - it's a long way from Norfolk to Scotland.

It almost happened worse than that.

Apparently at EBU events, I can't wear (tailored knee-length) shorts, but women seem to be able to wear skirts as short as they like. I was extremely tempted to find the shortest mini-skirt I could in my size (which is completely unsuited to mini-skirts) and see what happened.

[aguahombre]

Cyberyeti, on 2016-March-29, 13:07, said:

Apparently at EBU events, I can't wear (tailored knee-length) shorts,

You must really be ugly to warrant your own personal EBU prohibition.

[Zelandakh]

The standard dress code appears to be "smart casual" from what I can see, although naturally that means something different to everyone. Clubs with a smart casual dress code traditionally do not allow trainers for example but I would imagine it would not go down well to ban those from a bridge event. I also found a newsletter from Jeremy Dhondy touching on the subject - are patched jeans still allowed? More to the point, my bet is that if a lady showed up in a pair of the shorts designed to look like a skirt that noone would say a word, which could potentially open up the EBU to a charge of sexual discrimination. I reckon you could win on this point without resorting to the full-on mini skirt approach...

[gordontd]

Cyberyeti, on 2016-March-29, 13:07, said:

Apparently at EBU events, I can't wear (tailored knee-length) shorts, but women seem to be able to wear skirts as short as they like.

EBU Congress and Event Terms and Conditions say:

Quote

Competitors at EBU events are expected to dress properly and appropriately – shorts should be of the ‘tailored’ variety, and sleeveless shirts are not permitted.

[gordontd]

Cyberyeti, on 2016-March-29, 08:03, said:

Neither partner nor I fancied wearing a skirt.

I don't believe any norfolk pairs played in the portland.

That's not very surprising if the county was running a competing event at the same time.

[Cyberyeti]

Zelandakh, on 2016-March-30, 02:44, said:

The standard dress code appears to be "smart casual" from what I can see, although naturally that means something different to everyone. Clubs with a smart casual dress code traditionally do not allow trainers for example but I would imagine it would not go down well to ban those from a bridge event. I also found a newsletter from Jeremy Dhondy touching on the subject - are patched jeans still allowed? More to the point, my bet is that if a lady showed up in a pair of the shorts designed to look like a skirt that noone would say a word, which could potentially open up the EBU to a charge of sexual discrimination. I reckon you could win on this point without resorting to the full-on mini skirt approach...

This came to a head one year where the final of an EBU event was played at a hotel where a very boozy wedding reception was taking place in the function room opposite. We were treated to the sight of numerous women the worse for wear carrying their heels, lurching all over the corridor, some with backs of dresses tucked into their knickers, but apparently we were lowering the tone by wearing (smart) shorts. I've seen people playing in shellsuits, these are apparently OK and don't lower the tone at all, the whole thing is a complete anachronism.

[gordontd]

Cyberyeti, on 2016-March-30, 03:59, said:

This came to a head one year where the final of an EBU event was played at a hotel where a very boozy wedding reception was taking place in the function room opposite. We were treated to the sight of numerous women the worse for wear carrying their heels, lurching all over the corridor, some with backs of dresses tucked into their knickers, but apparently we were lowering the tone by wearing (smart) shorts. I've seen people playing in shellsuits, these are apparently OK and don't lower the tone at all, the whole thing is a complete anachronism.

It might be an anachronism if it were still true. Does it occur to you that the EBU might listen and respond to things its members draw to its attention?

[helene_t]

Quote

sleeveless shirts are not permitted.

[Zelandakh]

gordontd, on 2016-March-30, 03:54, said:

EBU Congress and Event Terms and Conditions say:

So why are sleeveless shirts not permitted but sleeveless blouses acceptable? Why are skorts allowed but shorts not? And what about those ripped jeans? And there are other aspects of dress code too that I would hope are addressed - I would much sooner face a man dressed in shorts than a woman wearing so much perfume that I can barely breathe, yet the latter is a mainstay at most bridge clubs. Has the EBU also listened and responded to such matters?

Finally, a link to the full regulation would be nice if you have it Gordon, as I did look around but was unable to locate the relevant document. It rather makes me wonder what the local regulations might be too.

Edit: I stuck Gordon's quote into the search engine and found this - I assume that must be the correct document so it appears that non-tailored shorts and sleeveless shirts are the only aspects of attire to be singled out for attention.