[gszes]

Over the past month I have seen at least 4 different treatments for the following auctions and I was curious if there is a "standard" treatment. Obviously my idea of standard is not as standard as I thought.

No interference 15-17 Nt scoring should not be a factor.

1n 2c 2h 2s and 1n 2c 2s 3h
they are indeed different but what the hey does everyone think they mean???

[ggwhiz]

1. We play 2♠ here as invitational with exactly 4 spades. Opener with 4-4 in the majors passes with a min.

2. 3♥ here shows 4+ spades and slam interest. Cue bids follow or 4nt is rkc where it would be quantitative without the "impossible" major bid. A jump to 3♠ in #1 does the same thing, setting hearts as trumps.

No way this is standard but I doubt that standard exists so in a pickup game I guess they are both forcing.

[eagles123]

Imo the first sets hearts and the second sets spades some kinda slammy hand

[Stephen Tu]

Both depend upon agreements, rest of system.

1st one is most often played as invitational with spades. How many spades it promises depends on mainly whether you have an alternate bid than 2c for nt invitations without a 4CD major. If you don't, typically 2s shows 4, and 2nt denies them. Else 2s shows 5.

The second sequence agrees spades, slammish. Meaning depends on how you d define other bids like 4m. If 4m is splinter, 3oM just sets trumps and denies a showable splinter. If 4c is rkc Gerber, and 4d quantitative with fit (known as Baze), 3oM is typically played as splinter somewhere, next step asks.

[Cyberyeti]

I think standard varies with where in the world you are, our approach is non-standard.

We play 1N-2♣-2♥-2♠ as a "what other 4 card suit do you have" type thing with slam interest, opener bids his other suit or 3♥ with 5, 2N 3433 max, 3N 3433 min.

We play 1N-2♣-2♠-3♥ as minor suit stayman (and 1N-2♣-2♦-3♥).

[ahydra]

I play the first one as INV+ with 4+S, not 4+H (since opener replies 2H with both). The second one DNE (partner likes to keep things simple), though if pushed I guess it would be either a cue for spades, or suggesting a hand with 4♠5♥ and slam interest.

Stephen, did you mean "the second sequence agrees spades" (rather than hearts)?

ahydra

[Stephen Tu]

ahydra, on 2016-March-19, 12:47, said:

Stephen, did you mean "the second sequence agrees spades" (rather than hearts)?

Yeah, that was mistake, I have tougher time proofreading when posting from my phone.

[mgoetze]

Stephen Tu, on 2016-March-19, 10:20, said:

1st one is most often played as invitational with spades. How many spades it promises depends on mainly whether you have an alternate bid than 2c for nt invitations without a 4CD major. If you don't, typically 2s shows 4, and 2nt denies them. Else 2s shows 5.

The second sequence agrees spades, slammish. Meaning depends on how you d define other bids like 4m. If 4m is splinter, 3oN just sets trumps and denies a showable splinter. If 4c is rkc Gerber, and 4d quantitative with fit (known as Baze), 3oM is typically played as splinter somewhere, next step asks.

This seems completely standard to me, so I really wonder what 3 or more other meanings gszes found.

[phoenix214]

+1 to the above post - would treat 2S as inv with 5 spades, 3OM as ST setting the major.
But it depends on the system.

[Vampyr]

ggwhiz, on 2016-March-19, 09:57, said:

1. We play 2♠ here as invitational with exactly 4 spades. Opener with 4-4 in the majors passes with a min.

2. 3♥ here shows 4+ spades and slam interest. Cue bids follow or 4nt is rkc where it would be quantitative without the "impossible" major bid. A jump to 3♠ in #1 does the same thing, setting hearts as trumps.

No way this is standard but I doubt that standard exists so in a pickup game I guess they are both forcing.

mgoetze, on 2016-March-19, 13:09, said:

This seems completely standard to me, so I really wonder what 3 or more other meanings gszes found.

Don't know what "standard" is but the above is the most popular treatment I know of, and am not really sure what other meanings are in use (obviously the first one may have a different meaning if 1NT - 2♣ - 2♥ - 2NT shows 4 spades), probably inv with 5 spades.

[mgoetze]

Vampyr, on 2016-March-19, 13:24, said:

Don't know what "standard" is

"Standard" is shorthand for "what 2 American experts who are playing together for the first time without discussion think their bids mean."

[Vampyr]

mgoetze, on 2016-March-19, 15:09, said:

"Standard" is shorthand for "what 2 American experts who are playing together for the first time without discussion think their bids mean."

LOL I am not sure either of us can claim to know what American players would expect!

[zillahandp]

Without a partnership understanding both are the same, game or more tries whether slam or game will be clear from next bid after the respse to the try.

[Fluffy]

1NT-2♣
2♥-2♠

Can be played as:
-4-card spade invitational
-4-card spade forcing relay (my preference)
-5-card spade invitational (mostly in France)
-4+ card spade invitational (rare, but I play it on weak NT system)

1NT-2♣
2♠-3♥

Can be played as:

Slam try in spades without singleton in a minor (most popular)
Slam try in spades with any singleton (evolution from the former)
invitational with 5 hearts (very outdated)

[nullve]

Hardly standard anywhere in the world (yet!), but I play

1N-2♣; 2♥-2♠ = 4S2-H5+m, weak

Invitational hands with 4 S don't exist in my pass-or-bash style. Invitational hands with 5 S only exist if they contain another 5+ suit, but then they can be shown by a special mechanism after 1N-2♥; 2♠.

[gszes]

Both show exactly 9 cards in the majors and invitational (1st can be passed with a fit and no game interest 2nd forced to 3s with no game interest)
Both show exactly 9 cards in the majors 22 minors and slammish
1n 2c 2h 2s non forcing asking opener to pass with 3+ spades (part of garbage stayman)
1n 2c 2s 3h short hearts some form of 4144 or 4045 game forcing slam interest

My personal favorite from the above is the first for its game seeking utility but there are a TON of ideas out there (fluffy's relay?) but it appears that "standard" is far from being defined here.

[kenberg]

mgoetze, on 2016-March-19, 15:09, said:

"Standard" is shorthand for "what 2 American experts who are playing together for the first time without discussion think their bids mean."

Right, except with 1NT-2♣-2♥-2♠ we might have to ask just how little discussion there actually was.

Suppose we have discussed enough that I know 1NT-2NT is not invit in NT. A trf to diamonds, I suppose. OK, then I get dealt an invit hand with four spades. I bid 2♣ and partner responds 2♥. Maybe on a flat hand I could rebid 2NT invt, but we surely will miss any spade fit if I do so. So, as long as I understand that 1NT-2♣-2♥-2NT would be seen by pard as the only way that I have to invite in NT when I lack a major, then 1NT-2♣-2♥-2♠ surely shows four spades and invit values.

The logic would be different for 1NT-2♣-2♠-3♥. If partner has only hearts then surely he has a variety of ways to bid the hand, depending on strength. Trf and drop it, trf and bid 2nt, trf and raise, trf at the four level, trf and self-splinter, etc etc. So it cannot be just hearts. Lacking discussion, it must be spade support. It is hard to imagine it not being spade support even with discussion. I might not know what it is exactly, but unless I have a really minimal hand I imagine I cue something and let partner take it from there. I have shown a NT opener with four spades, with fewer than four hearts, not a rock bottom minimum, and I have partly described my controls, or lack of them. If partner has any more questions he can ask them.

This seems to me to be right w/o worrying about expert level. If we don't know if 1NT-2NT is diamonds or a balanced raise, then of course we have a problem. But otherwise it all seems to follow with reasonable logic. Maybe not irrefutable logic, but good enough to expect agreement. If we discuss it, we can no doubt find other ways to play it. But pick-up? Seems clear to me.

[iandayre]

phoenix214, on 2016-March-19, 13:18, said:

+1 to the above post - would treat 2S as inv with 5 spades, 3OM as ST setting the major.
But it depends on the system.

You don't play transfers? 4S, invitational is easily most common treatment.

[Vampyr]

gszes, on 2016-March-20, 07:14, said:

Both show exactly 9 cards in the majors and invitational (1st can be passed with a fit and no game interest 2nd forced to 3s with no game interest)
Both show exactly 9 cards in the majors 22 minors and slammish
1n 2c 2h 2s non forcing asking opener to pass with 3+ spades (part of garbage stayman)
1n 2c 2s 3h short hearts some form of 4144 or 4045 game forcing slam interest

My personal favorite from the above is the first for its game seeking utility but there are a TON of ideas out there (fluffy's relay?) but it appears that "standard" is far from being defined here.

None of the above are very mainstream.

[Vampyr]

please delete