[Jinksy]

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Woops. IMP pairs, but 3 diamonds drifted one off, while with the Q♣ where you'd expect it, 6♥ was cold.

Who's (more) to blame, and what should have happened?

[wank]

east's pass is silly. he's only got 1 diamond, which is not many, even for a hand which has doubled 2D for takeout. perhaps he's used to playing against idiots who don't have 10 diamonds here, but if partner's got 3, then he'll have to have a stronger hand, making slam (below) even more likely.

he can pretty much drive slam. the west hand is about as minimal as it could be. Jxxx xxx xx Aqjx is the only hand i can think of where slam is terrible.

best start with 4D anyway.

[eagles123]

east is off his head

[MrAce]

You really don't need an ATB for this. It is too obvious even for BBF.

[Jinksy]

Well, I was the offending hand

Part of why I passed was not really knowing what my subsequent calls would mean (or how P would take them). What forcing bids do I have available here? Are jump shifts showing a hand like this, or a single-suiter that was planning to bid over anything?

[MrAce]

Jinksy, on 2016-July-21, 08:32, said:

Well, I was the offending hand

Part of why I passed was not really knowing what my subsequent calls would mean (or how P would take them). What forcing bids do I have available here? Are jump shifts showing a hand like this, or a single-suiter that was planning to bid over anything?

I think East has an easy 4♦ cue. West will bid 4♥. After this East may or may not drive to slam. 6♥ is cold you said.
I do not see how it is cold without guessing clubs.

[Jinksy]

Just cold in the sense that you'd be right on the lie of the cards to play the hand with fewer diamonds for the Q♣.

[Cyberyeti]

Jinksy, on 2016-July-21, 09:56, said:

Just cold in the sense that you'd be right on the lie of the cards to play the hand with fewer diamonds for the Q♣.

I'd feel really sore if you got a decent board for +500/800 which can't be impossible.

Obvious 4♦, but if you're not sure and want to show this sort of shape, I think you can bid 5♥ (single suited hearts can be bid 4♦-4♠-5♥ for me).

[ggwhiz]

I don't like wests double even a little bit without a 4th spade but I detest easts pass.

[MrAce]

ggwhiz, on 2016-July-21, 10:05, said:

I don't like wests double even a little bit without a 4th spade but I detest easts pass.

He does not even need 4th ♥ for this double, let alone 4-4 majors.

Axx
Qxx
Jxx
AJxx

is more than enough for west's double. I do not know why we still debate this after many years. Competitive doubles do not have the luxury of sparing them for certain shapes only. Justin, Mike, Josh, Han, Phil, Arend and many good players in this forum said it at some point, if you do not credit my word. We can not tie our hands and not DBL just because we do not have the assigned shape. Less available space = less luxury.

On the other hand you may argue whether West had the values or not for his dbl. I think he has a borderline hand.

[Jinksy]

I feel like a fourth spade would be a slight negative for west's double. Assuming it's basically just showing values and no fit, on shapes like 4423, mightn't he prefer an initial 4♦? The double is presumably going to get passed fairly frequently.

[MrAce]

Jinksy, on 2016-July-21, 15:21, said:

I feel like a fourth spade would be a slight negative for west's double. Assuming it's basically just showing values and no fit, on shapes like 4423, mightn't he prefer an initial 4♦? The double is presumably going to get passed fairly frequently.

I disagree that dbl will frequently be passed when they bid and jump raise and none of us used the double for penalty purpose. Opponents also see the colors when they make that bid and raise. Unless of course you are playing it as a penalty double.


Regarding the 4♦ cue, if you do it with 4-4 majors and 7-9 hcp and another day with 13 hcp an another day 15 hcp, you will end up playing very bad games when it is made with 7-9 hcp. On other days partner will never know when to go slam or when your side has the majority of strength if the auction gets a little more competitive and will end up making bad decisions.

This is exactly why I chose 3♠ on another similar topic when held 5-5 majors and 3 hcp, even when I guessed the original hand due to being asked in forums. If we bid 4♦ with 5-5 and 3 hcp, another day 4-4 with 8 hcp, another day 4-4 with 14 hcp, each and every single time pd having exactly the same space to respond, we have a very big issue. This is the kind of behavior that leads to A LOT of random outcome.

Those who bid 4♦ on the other topic found a 5-5 fit, a VERY decent 15 hcp and ended up making 4♥ while 3♠ ers played there. I am more than happy to pay the price for 3♠ bid and move on. Others will, imo, have much more issues and prices to pay in many other hands.