[euclidz]

If every hand lent itself to an obvious choice of bids it would be an easy and boring game.

Second in hand I had 14hcp, 5♥ (KQxx) and 3♣ over oppositions opening bid of 1♣. My options were a bid of 1♥, 2♥ or double. My opinion was that:
1. an overcall of 1♥ showed less than 12hcp
2. an overcall of 2♥ showed 6 good hearts, a 6 loser hand and a singleton of void
3. double showed opening points and a shortage in clubs.

All 3 options (in my opinion) told a lie and as it is often the case (IMO) it's about making the choice which gives the most/best information.

I chose to dble. Ops in 3rd seat bid 1♥ my partner bid 1♠ I passed with Ax spade. His response on seeing my hand was OMG and then went on to make 8 tricks. He followed with 'expert' advice that my correct bid was an overcall of 1♥ which showed 5♥ and up to 15hcp.

How wrong was my choice?

[wank]

1h can be easily 17 and some 18s. his expert advice (15) was bad. your expert advice (12) was worse.

doubling shows 3+ cards in all unbid majors, and tolerance for any unbid minors (ideally 3+ but 2 isn't a crisis), or any hand too strong to overcall (18 or 19+). by doubling you have no sensible bid over partner's 1S bid. it could easily be a 4-2 fit. in fact partner would have every right to bid at the 2 level with 4 spades.

you can play 2H as that strength if you like (and yes, 6 cards). that's fine. restricting it to include only hands with a side singleton/void is pointless.

[1eyedjack]

I don't think that the OP claimed to be an expert, but here is your hand

---

Wank is otherwise right. There is a large overlap between the minimum values for a double and the maximum values for an overcall. The latter could easily by 17. 1H is easily the right call. And it is irrelevant that you are playing Acol.

[wank]

1eyedjack, on 2016-October-23, 13:40, said:

I don't think that the OP claimed to be an expert, but here is your hand

i assumed this 12 figure had been previous 'expert' advice from a different player.

[euclidz]

Thanks for the helpful replies

[msjennifer]

My interpretation of a simple suit overcall at one level is (to be understood as ) a hand with 5 plus named suit and 6 to 8 losers as played in that suit.The hand can have even upto 17 HCP ( provided you can't overcall one NT,playing 15/17 NT). With 5 or less losers in a single suiter hand and 16 to 18 HCP one first doubles and then bids ones suit over partners response.( keeping in mind that partner may have nothing useful and it could be just a forced bid) For double suited hands there are various conventions ( or gadgets) available e.g Roman double suited overcalls ,Michaels etc.Your given hand is ,therefore,fit for a simple 1Heart overcall and not a take-out double.

[helene_t]

"Up to 15" is about what beginners and improvers are generally taught in the UK, AFAIK. Maybe up to a modest 16. I am not claiming that this is UK expert standard, but UK teaching standard seems to be a slightly lower upper bound for overcalls than in North America.

[GrahamJson]

1H is definitely the correct bid on the hand shown, and previous comments are generally correct. A couple of other observations: A one level overcall can be a four card suit in some circumstances. The suit would need to be good. An example might be AKJ10 xx KQJx xxx. This would be a reasonable 1S overcall of 1C but a double of 1H.

My second observation is that the upper limit for overcalls seems to have increased quite a bit in recent years, particularly amongst some US experts.

[miamijd]

helene_t, on 2016-October-24, 08:06, said:

"Up to 15" is about what beginners and improvers are generally taught in the UK, AFAIK. Maybe up to a modest 16. I am not claiming that this is UK expert standard, but UK teaching standard seems to be a slightly lower upper bound for overcalls than in North America.

Certainly is. Even some 17 point hands are overcalls here in the USA. It generally depends on your suit length. If you have a 6+ card self-sufficient suit, you can double and bid the suit on slightly weaker hands. The idea here is that if you overcall, you don't want partner passing with 2-card support, 8-9 HCP or so, and no stop in the opponents' suit.

But if you have only a 5-card suit, you are generally perfectly safe overcalling at the one-level even with a normal 17. In fact, it's usually the best choice. Now your chances of making game often depend on partner having support. If partner has three-card support, he'll raise with a decent 6, so you won't miss game. Now you can make a game try. If you double first and then rebid your suit, partner is entitled to bid game with a 6-count and 3-card support.

If partner doesn't have support, then with only a 5-card suit, you'll need him to have at least a decent 8 with a stop or two in the opponents' suit to make a game, and with 8-11 balanced and 2- cards in your suit, he'll likely bid 1NT with stop(s). Again, you won't miss a game. But if you X first and then bid your suit, partner will bid game with 6-7 HCP and stop(s) for NT. Now you are likely overboard.

Cheers,
Mike

[akwoo]

Yes, this is definitely a 1♥ overcall.

The rule I prefer for a double intending to bid your own suit is to be one trick short of an Acol 2.

It's true that the trend towards a wider range for overcalls puts more pressure on partner in the advancing seat. OTOH, there are now more bidding tools these days to sort this out; not only is some variant of the UCB now standard, but most experts play gadgets like the mixed raise jump cue.

[Vampyr]

I think that many years ago it was normal in Acol to double rather than overcall with opening values. (This may not be tue, but it is the impression I get from reading old books).

[1eyedjack]

But then I expect that a jump overcall was strong, a cue bid was very strong, and a double followed by new suit was weaker

[Zelandakh]

Vampyr, on 2016-October-24, 22:27, said:

I think that many years ago it was normal in Acol to double rather than overcall with opening values. (This may not be tue, but it is the impression I get from reading old books).

I think this was a popular method in the UK but never standard for Acol.

[helene_t]

It is a widespread misconception in the Netherlands as well. I don't know if it has ever been recommended by textbooks. Since many would explain an overcall as showing a ridicolously narrow range (say 9-11 points), I am inclined to think that it has never been recommended but rather is based on a misunderstanding. Maybe some popular textbook described a t/o double as showing "opening values and no other call to make" and an overcall as "not promising opening values", and then this has become warped into "overcall = 9-11, dbl = 12+" by memetic drift.

[661_Pete]

I think that the general rule for a takeout double is, you must be able to cope with anything your partner may say. Obviously you don't need the opener's suit (clubs in this case): if your partner has exceptional clubs they will bid NT or make a penalty pass, not bid them (although, having said that, I recall making a penalty pass in good faith, declarer made a couple of overtricks and we were hammered ... ).

In the hand above you have a problem if partner bids spades (assuming third hand passes). They may have only five or even four, so you don't have a fit, and you now have to bid your hearts at the two level, if at all.

It is an advantage in Acol to play Weak Jump Overcalls. That way, if you bid 1♥, you are automatically showing some strength: usually opening values. With a weak hand, you wouldn't overcall in hearts anyway, whether at one or two level, unless you had at least a six-card suit.

Anyway, my choice in the above hand is 1♥.

[Zelandakh]

661_Pete, on 2016-October-25, 12:48, said:

That way, if you bid 1♥, you are automatically showing some strength: usually opening values. With a weak hand, you wouldn't overcall in hearts anyway, whether at one or two level, unless you had at least a six-card suit.

Not sure I agree with this at all. ♠xx ♥KQJxx ♦xxxx ♣xx seems like a perfectly normal 1♥ overcall to me. Of course it is not so bad to treat this as a 6 card suit and make a WJO but there are many hands with a 5 card heart suit and less than opening values that I would expect the majority to use a 1♥ overcall on rather than jumping or passing.

[Wackojack]

Back to basics:
If you open 1♥ with a 5 card suit it can be 11-19 or sometimes a poor 20. A range of 10.
If you overcall 1♥ with a 5 card suit it can be 6-18. A range of 13.

Why the difference? The overcall has more bidding room for partner to sort out the strength in that cue bids are available to show the stronger hands with 3 card support (or more) and direct raises to show the weaker 3+ card support hands. Also when you overcall with a weak hand and partner has 3 card support a direct raise is protected by the LAW. The same goes for jumps with 4 or more card support.

[P_Marlowe]

Wackojack, on 2016-October-26, 13:15, said:

Back to basics:
If you open 1♥ with a 5 card suit it can be 11-19 or sometimes a poor 20. A range of 10.
If you overcall 1♥ with a 5 card suit it can be 6-18. A range of 13.

Why the difference? The overcall has more bidding room for partner to sort out the strength in that cue bids are available to show the stronger hands with 3 card support (or more) and direct raises to show the weaker 3+ card support hands. Also when you overcall with a weak hand and partner has 3 card support a direct raise is protected by the LAW. The same goes for jumps with 4 or more card support.

The claim, that you have more room after an overcall is doubtful at best.
The auction got competitive, and you know it, if you open the bidding, it may
get competitive, or it may not.

This being said, the greater range is not that hurtful / the downside gets compesated
by dditional benefits
#1 if they have opened the bidding, slam prospects for us are small to non existing,
i.e. we need less room for deciding, what our best final end contract may be
#2 getting the suit as a lead director helps partner
#3 finding a cheap sacrifice
#4 fighting for the part score

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Zelandakh]

P_Marlowe, on 2016-October-27, 01:25, said:

The claim, that you have more room after an overcall is doubtful at best.
The auction got competitive, and you know it, if you open the bidding, it may
get competitive, or it may not.

It is doubtful for other reasons too. WJ plays Acol and perhaps has a Strong 2 bid available with some partners but without strong twos the upper limit of a suit opening is hardly 19-20. We have all seen hands of 23+hcp here that the majority recommend to be a 1m opening. Similarly, there are plenty of 10hcp hands that the majority will open. If you compare this range (10-23) with the given overcall range (6-18) it does not look so much larger on the overcall side.

Traditionally the ranges (in England) were 10-19 for an opening and 6-15 for an overcall. Exactly the same size. Bidding theorists have been stealing additional space from the top of the range for years now from both openings and overcalls, taking advantage of better methods and the rarity of disasters occurring on the extreme hands. It is wrong to think that this has only happened on overcalls, although the benefits are greater in competition as that is where the extra homogeneity of the suit opening tends to be more valuable than the greater accuracy from a limited opening combined with an artificial call handling stronger hands.

[helene_t]

Wackojack, on 2016-October-26, 13:15, said:

Back to basics:
If you open 1♥ with a 5 card suit it can be 11-19 or sometimes a poor 20. A range of 10.
If you overcall 1♥ with a 5 card suit it can be 6-18. A range of 13.

Why the difference? The overcall has more bidding room for partner to sort out the strength in that cue bids are available to show the stronger hands with 3 card support (or more) and direct raises to show the weaker 3+ card support hands. Also when you overcall with a weak hand and partner has 3 card support a direct raise is protected by the LAW. The same goes for jumps with 4 or more card support.

I think the main reason for the difference is something else.

When you open, a very important aim is to explorer game, especially 3nt. You need to be able to convey your number of HCPs reasonably accurately.

When you overcall, it is much less likely that you have game, especially 3NT. So you sacrifice some HCP accuracy in order to allow for more frequent overcalls. Whenever you have a suit which you want partner to raise and/or to lead, you want to tell him about it.