[manudude03]

---

MPs scoring, 4D was natural (not leaping michaels). Your call?

edit: forgot 4NT as an option, added it in. Unfortunately it is just plain old RKC in your agreements.

[mike777]

4nt looking for the grand.

partner has promised more than one ace with 4d.
no problem yet.

a club control is the least of our issues, expect 8d to be cold.

[MrAce]

Do we have any reasonable alternative to 5♣?
This does not mean I have clubs controlled. I must have 2 ways of raising diamonds a- for playing game b- for offering slam.

Otherwise you have to play 4M bids here as a cue, which is a no no for me, because I would never disable myself from bidding natural 6-7 card major and 7-8 hcp in this auction for offering pd a 4M contract.

EDIT: You wrote 4 NT as RKCB. Perhaps if it was not rkcb, we could use 4 NT followed by 5♦ as strong diamond raise with no ♣ control, direct 5 diamond is just to play, 5♣ is with club control?

[MrAce]

The more I think, if pd does not have a club control, he must have something like

KQJ
KQ
AQJT9x
xx

and that really does not look like a 4♦ bid to me, does it? I prefer DBL with this or 3 ♦ depending on style, but I would not start 4♦.

Because it definitely have tolerance to play in spades or even hearts, but most importantly our best spot can be 3 NT if pd bids over my dbl. (say pd has Axx xxxx Kxxx QJx)
So perhaps Mike777 has a fair point about not worrying about ♣ control.

[neilkaz]

 mike777, on 2016-September-06, 17:12, said:

4nt looking for the grand.

partner has promised more than one ace with 4d.
no problem yet.

a club control is the least of our issues, expect 8d to be cold.

I thought about this and agree with you.

[manudude03]

 MrAce, on 2016-September-06, 17:17, said:

EDIT: You wrote 4 NT as RKCB. Perhaps if it was not rkcb, we could use 4 NT followed by 5♦ as strong diamond raise with no ♣ control, direct 5 diamond is just to play, 5♣ is with club control?

That's what I was thinking which is why I specified it was rkcb.

[The_Badger]

hi manudude03,

I'm a coward and not going to vote as not quite sure, except by agreement, what 4♦ signifies.

If North is strong why not X and then remove/act upon partner's next bid instead of 4♦?

The more I try to visualise a 4♦ hand, the less confident I feel of finding the right bid with the South cards.

Never overcall a pre-empt with a pre-empt is a hard and fast rule as far as I am concerned.

4NT looks the sensible bid without agreements. Thankfully you're holding the ♦K so can still bale out in 5♦ if partner turns up with just one ace. Cowardly I know.

[Tramticket]

 The_Badger, on 2016-September-07, 04:59, said:

hi manudude03,

I'm a coward and not going to vote as not quite sure, except by agreement, what 4♦ signifies.

If North is strong why not X and then remove/act upon partner's next bid instead of 4♦?

The more I try to visualise a 4♦ hand, the less confident I feel of finding the right bid with the South cards.

Never overcall a pre-empt with a pre-empt is a hard and fast rule as far as I am concerned.

4NT looks the sensible bid without agreements. Thankfully you're holding the ♦K so can still bale out in 5♦ if partner turns up with just one ace. Cowardly I know.

4♦ is strong - as you say "Never overcall a pre-empt with a pre-empt".

I believe that 4♦ also shows a good suit rather than general values. Given that, I was thinking that 4♥ ought to be a cue-bid? But since I can't envisage partner bidding this strongly and having two fast club losers I settled on the simple RKCB.

[mr1303]

I agree with the above - partner cannot have a 4D bid with 2 low clubs, so I bid 4NT, expecting my next bid to be 5NT.

[Zelandakh]

 MrAce, on 2016-September-06, 17:17, said:

EDIT: You wrote 4 NT as RKCB. Perhaps if it was not rkcb, we could use 4 NT followed by 5♦ as strong diamond raise with no ♣ control, direct 5 diamond is just to play, 5♣ is with club control?

I have pointed this out before but in these cramped auctions it tends to work out more efficient to use the cue to deny a control rather than showing one, as with a control one can often use RKCB or place the contract. That is not a big issue on this hand as it not possible for partner to be holding no club control and still have a 4♦ bid given our hand, as pointed out by several other posters.

The biggest issue with 4NT is arguably not what to do when partner shows 1 key card but rather how the auction develops opposite 2+Q. How can we find 7 opposite ♠Kx ♥Kxx ♦AQJxxxx ♣A and stay at the 6 level opposite ♠Kx ♥Kx ♦AQJxxxx ♣Ax? The odds are probably good enough to ignore the second hand and bid 7 opposite any 2+Q+2K. Even if 5♣ were indeed to deny a club control, I am doubtful that would actually help us in getting the final decision right. If someone could demonstrate that I am open to being persuaded in that direction though.

[manudude03]

At the table, I hadn't appreciated just how tough it is for partner to not have a club control and chickened out and bid 5D. Partner's hand was Qx KQJ AQJxxxx x, you aren't off 2 club tricks, but unfortunately you have an unavoidable spade loser too.

[rmnka447]

I couldn't decide what to vote for because of the ambiguity of what 4 ♦ meant. At the table, I'd probably decide to do what you did and simply bid 5 ♦.

It's probably worthwhile discussing with your partner what jumps over preempts promise. I think a narrow meaning is necessary because the jump robs your side of so much valuable bidding space. With my partners, I'd take a jump as setting trump and saying "This is what I think I can make." That gives advancer some basis for action. Then any further bids by advancer should be control showing. It may not be perfect, but offers some opportunity to find slams that might otherwise not be bid.

Looking at your partner's hand, I think it's more of a double then bid 4 ♦ hand as it has 5 losers.

[MrAce]

 manudude03, on 2016-September-08, 06:14, said:

At the table, I hadn't appreciated just how tough it is for partner to not have a club control and chickened out and bid 5D. Partner's hand was Qx KQJ AQJxxxx x, you aren't off 2 club tricks, but unfortunately you have an unavoidable spade loser too.

Pd needs to improve on when to bid 4♦ over 3♣. AQJ 7th is far from being solid and his major holdings can tolerate a 4M contract if pd has them. For example I would bid 4D with same values but a hand that can not stand another contract than diamonds. A KQ AKJxxxx xxx (which makes it unlikely that pd has a club stopper and more likely that pd has some diamonds due to being short in clubs. Not warranted but expected)

Leaving behind the 3 NT heaven, with 3 aces + trump K missing, is looking for trouble. I would start 3♦ with that hand.

[Zelandakh]

Agree with Timo - that looks like a 3♦ overcall to me and the other option of doubling and continuing 4♦ over 3♠ also looks better than the direct 4♦. Avoiding partner bidding 4♦ here is probably worth the agreement for LM even if you do not like the convention generally!

[manudude03]

 Zelandakh, on 2016-September-08, 08:38, said:

Agree with Timo - that looks like a 3♦ overcall to me and the other option of doubling and continuing 4♦ over 3♠ also looks better than the direct 4♦. Avoiding partner bidding 4♦ here is probably worth the agreement for LM even if you do not like the convention generally!

Maybe a little unfair, but my partner decided it would be a good idea to play Fishbein, so a natural 3D wasn't available. I wanted to ask about the hand opposite a normal person. And yes, I've asked him a few times to drop it, but he insists he doesn't want to give up the penalty double .

[MrAce]

 manudude03, on 2016-September-08, 15:47, said:

...... but he insists he doesn't want to give up the penalty double .

I see.
Then there is not much you can do.

[Zelandakh]

 manudude03, on 2016-September-08, 15:47, said:

Maybe a little unfair, but my partner decided it would be a good idea to play Fishbein, so a natural 3D wasn't available. I wanted to ask about the hand opposite a normal person. And yes, I've asked him a few times to drop it, but he insists he doesn't want to give up the penalty double .

I used to play a variation of Fishbein called FILM as a junior. It is not really so bad over a 3♣ opening as the problems hands, such as this one, are fairly rare and you can usually survive by either passing (at the bottom end) or bidding 3♦ followed by 4♦ (if stronger). Basic Fishbein is really bad over 3red openings though so perhaps you could agree a compromise to use Fishbein over 3 black and takeout doubles over 3red. More than likely he will come to appreciate the advantages of the TOD approach after a few months and you will be able to switch over completely.

[mike777]

 manudude03, on 2016-September-08, 06:14, said:

At the table, I hadn't appreciated just how tough it is for partner to not have a club control and chickened out and bid 5D. Partner's hand was Qx KQJ AQJxxxx x, you aren't off 2 club tricks, but unfortunately you have an unavoidable spade loser too.

Not close to a 4d call, easy 3d call.

I guess if forced to play fishbein I make the takeout bid of .......wait for it...3d.

[rmnka447]

 manudude03, on 2016-September-08, 15:47, said:

Maybe a little unfair, but my partner decided it would be a good idea to play Fishbein, so a natural 3D wasn't available. I wanted to ask about the hand opposite a normal person. And yes, I've asked him a few times to drop it, but he insists he doesn't want to give up the penalty double .

Then you need to discuss what (3 ♣) - 3 ♦(Fishbein) - (P) - 3 ♥/♠ - (P) - 4 ♦ and (3 ♣) - 4 ♦ show. Since you only get to show ♦ at the four level, I suggest that you've lost the ability to make "normal" 3 ♦ overcalls and should decide what sequence shows the hand actually held and what shows the stronger "I can make 4 ♦ by myself" hand. Otherwise, you're sort of forced to do exactly what you did -- bid 5 ♦ -- because there's just no way to have a clue about what partner holds. If that ambiguity means you occasionally miss a biddable cold slam, that's just the way it is with the methods you're using.

You might also want to keep track of how often you make a Fishbein penalty double and how often you lose something because of being forced to make an artificial TO bid. Then you might have some documented results with which to revisit using Fishbein.

[rhm]

 MrAce, on 2016-September-06, 17:17, said:

Do we have any reasonable alternative to 5♣?
This does not mean I have clubs controlled. I must have 2 ways of raising diamonds a- for playing game b- for offering slam.

Otherwise you have to play 4M bids here as a cue, which is a no no for me, because I would never disable myself from bidding natural 6-7 card major and 7-8 hcp in this auction for offering pd a 4M contract.

EDIT: You wrote 4 NT as RKCB. Perhaps if it was not rkcb, we could use 4 NT followed by 5♦ as strong diamond raise with no ♣ control, direct 5 diamond is just to play, 5♣ is with club control?

I do not want to offer slam, I consider myself too strong for that, assuming partner has his bid.
If I bid 5♣ and partner bids 5♦ and I raise I invite a grand.
Inviting a grand I have too many holes and I do not see a convincing sequence to get to 7♦.

I bid 6♦.

Rainer Herrmann