[manudude03]

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Just back from the first weekend of Camrose trials, and this board came up where neither player felt they had enough to bid on. Both finesses were working so 7H was making. Assign the blame.

[nullve]

Goren and I blame North 100 %.

[wank]

north has a huge hand

[Cyberyeti]

My blame would be with N, he can have a lot less than this, S could have Ax, AKQxx, Axx, AQx and enough extra to make it a 25 point rebid and you could have 13 tricks no finesses required.

What would 4m be here over 3♥ ? I'd like to be able to bid 4♣ (potential source of tricks), but I suggest it's just a cue and now it's not easy.

[manudude03]

Cyberyeti, on 2016-October-02, 14:39, said:

My blame would be with N, he can have a lot less than this, S could have Ax, AKQxx, Axx, AQx and enough extra to make it a 25 point rebid and you could have 13 tricks no finesses required.

What would 4m be here over 3♥ ? I'd like to be able to bid 4♣ (potential source of tricks), but I suggest it's just a cue and now it's not easy.

4m would be natural (implying 4 spades), 3S would be agreeing hearts.

[masse24]

After the positive Puppet response, North owed South a 3♠ bid.

[Kaitlyn S]

masse24, on 2016-October-02, 15:33, said:

After the positive Puppet response, North owed South a 3♠ bid.

What is 3S? I like it if it's a way to show interest in a heart slam but I don't think any of my partners would take it that way, at least without thinking that I have a spade control. Personally I would bid 4C if that was a control bid in support of hearts with this partner. There are some that might think that 4C in this auction is the only way to show clubs, and others that think the 4C is (sic) Gerber. With no agreement I might take a shot at 6H. If I had no clue how partner would take 4C but felt that he could hardly misguess what 5D meant, I might bid that (change South's SA D7 to the SQ DQ and you would just as soon miss slam.) Yes, i suspect that most of you might think 5D showed four hearts, but even if it does, it's still a better bid than a misunderstood 3S or 4C or a blast to 6H.

[Cyberyeti]

manudude03, on 2016-October-02, 14:41, said:

4m would be natural (implying 4 spades), 3S would be agreeing hearts.

OK, that's ideal (I never play puppet), easy 3♠ then

[wank]

Kaitlyn S, on 2016-October-02, 15:50, said:

What is 3S? I like it if it's a way to show interest in a heart slam but I don't think any of my partners would take it that way, at least without thinking that I have a spade control. Personally I would bid 4C if that was a control bid in support of hearts with this partner. There are some that might think that 4C in this auction is the only way to show clubs, and others that think the 4C is (sic) Gerber. With no agreement I might take a shot at 6H. If I had no clue how partner would take 4C but felt that he could hardly misguess what 5D meant, I might bid that (change South's SA D7 to the SQ DQ and you would just as soon miss slam.) Yes, i suspect that most of you might think 5D showed four hearts, but even if it does, it's still a better bid than a misunderstood 3S or 4C or a blast to 6H.

3S is standard as agreeing hearts in any version of stayman. similarly 4m is standard as natural and denying a fit for the major shown. up the thread manudude confirms this is what he's playing too.

[mcphee]

North fell asleep as they have a huge hand in support and owes S a 3S bid to show some slam interest. A 3S bid after 3H can not possibly be spades as there was no transfer, like a last train bid it may or may not contain the A or K but shows interest in possible investigation.

[gszes]

N has a nice hand opposite a strong 2 bid. The main reason N takes 100% of the blame is that this system apparently has no mechanism for N to show values in support of hearts and N has to realize S might think they have xxxx xxx xxx xxx in order to bid this way (unless there is some sort of inference missing from the bidding description. The very least N should do is try 5h asking p to bid 6 with extra values. The system seems broken with the weak hand doing all the work:)

[billw55]

North. Open and shut case of SJ Simon rule, "how much worse could my hand be?"

[rmnka447]

manudude03, on 2016-October-02, 14:41, said:

4m would be natural (implying 4 spades), 3S would be agreeing hearts.

Definitely North should bid 3 ♠ agreeing ♥. Honor plus intermediate in ♥, decent 5 card suit, and potential ruffing value are too much to just raise to 4 ♥.

[mr1303]

Obviously North is to blame.

But thinking about it if I had this auction, I would still take another call as South. The right Yarborough makes 6 cold. I'm not sure what I bid as South, but I do bid something.

So I call mostly North rather than 100%.

[billw55]

mr1303, on 2016-October-05, 23:56, said:

Obviously North is to blame.

But thinking about it if I had this auction, I would still take another call as South. The right Yarborough makes 6 cold. I'm not sure what I bid as South, but I do bid something.

So I call mostly North rather than 100%.

With a loser in every suit, that will need a pretty fortunate yarb. Hard to see how they can work that out in the space remaining.

[Jinksy]

I agree with all the comments about N being wet, but I think there's some argument for S upgrading Beyond the 25-26 tier, if that's what his bidding effectively marks him as. It's hard to ask for a better balanced 25 count - KNR rates it as 27.25.

[wank]

Jinksy, on 2016-October-06, 07:14, said:

I agree with all the comments about N being wet, but I think there's some argument for S upgrading Beyond the 25-26 tier, if that's what his bidding effectively marks him as. It's hard to ask for a better balanced 25 count - KNR rates it as 27.25.

he showed 25+. 27.25 or whatever you want to call it counts as 25+. there's nothing he can do. it's not like he can even be confident of making 4H.

[Jinksy]

What would a 3N bid over 2♠ have been by south? It doesn't seem like a pretty way of showing (say) 27-28, but if S had no way to do so then, while N's bidding was poor, it feels like they were at least partly fixed by system. I would think for eg South still had his bid with the QS instead of the K and even with a heart X instead of the 10, but they would surely be impossible to differentiate below 5♥, and I think slam is substantially worse than 50% without them.

[mr1303]

billw55, on 2016-October-06, 06:29, said:

With a loser in every suit, that will need a pretty fortunate yarb. Hard to see how they can work that out in the space remaining.

Me neither, but he doesn't have to have a Yarb, hence bidding on is reasonable.

[Cyberyeti]

wank, on 2016-October-06, 08:42, said:

he showed 25+. 27.25 or whatever you want to call it counts as 25+. there's nothing he can do. it's not like he can even be confident of making 4H.

This is the disadvantage of playing that method, it has many advantages. As you get up the points scale 25 is much more likely than 26 etc so partner will assume exactly 25 unless you do something about it, and I don't think you have enough extras to do that.