[mike777]

1h=1nt or 1h=1s=? opp are silent....vul vs not
In other words should pard with 2=6=4=1 shape rebid 2h or 2d and with what hands in your preferred style?

In your style would 2d rebid by opener show extras...whatever extras means in your style

[spotlight7]

With minimum values rebid the Hs.

With extras bid the Ds.


2Ds does not show extras, opener shows extras by bidding a third time if the auction permits.



with 5-5 reds, I hope you do not pass 1N


If you are worried about showing extras, look up Gazzilli 1H-1N-2C* has various follow ups including weak versions.

I like 16+ or a 6 card heart suit version. 1H-1N-2H* shows 5Hs and 4Cs to permit showing that hand.

[broze]

spotlight7, on 2017-June-20, 23:15, said:

With minimum values rebid the Hs.

With extras bid the Ds.

This is a popular approach but flawed in my opinion. I will almost always rebid the minor unless I have a great quality diparity between the suits. It is glib but it is better to show 9 cards with 2 bids than 6 cards.

[nullve]

mike777, on 2017-June-20, 22:58, said:

1h=1nt or 1h=1s=? opp are silent....vul vs not
In other words should pard with 2=6=4=1 shape rebid 2h or 2d and with what hands in your preferred style?

In your style would 2d rebid by opener show extras...whatever extras means in your style

2♦ doesn't show extras in standard, but some like to play that

* 1♥-1♠/N; 2♦-2N; 3♥ = GF;
* 1♥-1♠/N; 2♥-2N; 3♦ = NF.

Ohters prefer to rebid 2♦ also with absolute minimum, but have ways to distinguish between both good and bad 6-4s after 1♥-1♠; 2♦-2N. Both Justin Lall and Fred Gitelman have written about this IIRC.

Found this:

https://justinlall.w...ood-convention/
https://bbi.bridgeba...fg/2over13.html

[steve2005]

Unless the diamond suit is weak it is better show the diamonds.
Partner should be taking false preference on most hands with 2♥ and 3♦ so nothing is lost if playing 5-card majors.

[spotlight7]

broze, on 2017-June-21, 04:13, said:

This is a popular approach but flawed in my opinion. I will almost always rebid the minor unless I have a great quality diparity between the suits. It is glib but it is better to show 9 cards with 2 bids than 6 cards.

The post mentioned 2S 6H 4D 1C(2=6=4=1)

With 5-4 you should bid the minor, however, with 6Hs

rebidding the major is virtually always correct

holding non invitational values.

[mike777]

Thanks for the responses.

The hand in the email quiz question was J....QTxxxx...KQ9x....Kx vul vs not. first seat.


the actual question was whether you open it 1h or 2h....everyone was ready to open it 1h which raised the issue of how to get to 5d or 6d after 1s or 1nt response if we assume responder is less than 100% gf.

of course a few mentioned good old gazzilli which allows you to rebid 2d and find the diamond fit just not the level. I wondered how many would rebid 2h rather than 2d not playing that gadget.

[broze]

spotlight7, on 2017-June-21, 10:37, said:

The post mentioned 2S 6H 4D 1C(2=6=4=1)

With 5-4 you should bid the minor, however, with 6Hs

rebidding the major is virtually always correct

holding non invitational values.

I disagree and stand by my comment. Would you rebid 2H with x JTxxxx AKQx Kx? II think that is losing bridge personally.

[spotlight7]

broze, on 2017-June-21, 15:15, said:

I disagree and stand by my comment. Would you rebid 2H with x JTxxxx AKQx Kx? II think that is losing bridge personally.

Feel free to disagree. Perhaps you might want to look up what "virtually" always correct." means.


You ignored the fact that the possted hand was 2=6=4=1 and also answered talking about a hand with

5Hs and 4Ds when the hand was 2=6=4=1 Of course different shapes often change the bidding.


Answering a question about a 2=6=4=1 hand by using a 5H and 4D example is using flawed logic.


I tend to open 1S with hands with 5Ss and I do not open them 1H which you might suggest holding 5Hs.

[sfi]

spotlight7, on 2017-June-21, 18:58, said:

Feel free to disagree. Perhaps you might want to look up what "virtually" always correct." means.


You ignored the fact that the possted hand was 2=6=4=1 and also answered talking about a hand with

5Hs and 4Ds when the hand was 2=6=4=1 Of course different shapes often change the bidding.


Answering a question about a 2=6=4=1 hand by using a 5H and 4D example is using flawed logic.


I tend to open 1S with hands with 5Ss and I do not open them 1H which you might suggest holding 5Hs.

I don't think you're reading broze's comments properly in your rush to prove that he didn't read yours correctly.

In summary, giving opener a 2-6-4-1 shape:

1H - 1NT
2D

shows 9 cards in opener's hand.

1H - 1NT
2H

shows 6 cards.

Broze's point is that 2D shows more of opener's hand than does 2H (i.e. 9 > 6). The sample hand he posted suggests he didn't miss the fact that opener has a 6-card heart suit.

[broze]

sfi, on 2017-June-21, 21:26, said:

<snip>

Thanks sfi for spelling it out. Yes that's exactly my point.

And I have no idea how spotlight got from what I said to suggesting that I would open 1H with 5-5 Majors....

[awm]

I agree with Broze that rebidding diamonds is best. The issue is that partner may have a really big fit for diamonds, in which case it will be a far better strain (maybe even a game), but he will never introduce the suit after a 2♥ rebid. For example the following hands seem to be likely passes of 1♥-1NT-2♥:

Axx x QJxxx Kxxx
Qxx x Qxxxxx Axx

Yet if we give opener:

Kx JTxxxx AKxx x

Game in diamonds is not unreasonable opposite either hand. Partner can see that his hand is huge after a 2♦ rebid, but will not be excited after the rebid of his singleton heart.

If the hearts are such that they play well as trumps opposite a singleton and the diamonds are weak, it is okay to rebid hearts:

Kx KQTxxx Kxxx x

This one is not much of a game opposite the example hands, and it is at least possible that you will play 2♥+1 at MP (beating 3♦+1).

Note that similar "really big hand for hearts" responders don't exist, since they would already be raising opposite five hearts (the sixth heart cannot turn "no fit" into "really big fit").

[spotlight7]

broze, on 2017-June-21, 15:15, said:

I disagree and stand by my comment. Would you rebid 2H with x JTxxxx AKQx Kx? II think that is losing bridge personally.

Thanks for writing that rebidding the major was a popular approach.

You disagree with that approach, however, many do rebid the major with suitable hands.

[spotlight7]

sfi, on 2017-June-21, 21:26, said:

I don't think you're reading broze's comments properly in your rush to prove that he didn't read yours correctly.


*****I did not rush to "prove" that he did not "correctly" read my comments.

I did comment that IMHO he did not understand what I wrote.****


shows 9 cards in opener's hand.

1H - 1NT
2H

shows 6 cards.

*****Showing 9 cards when you hold 10 that includes a 6 card major is not a great concept IMHO.

I agree that you show 9 cards, however, if the auction continues your 2D will stop you from showing your real shape.


Most people bid 1M-2m-3M to show a good hand with 6M and 4m. Since you bid 1M-1N-2D,

you get to pass next or overbid your values next.


*****Nullve posted examples of this bidding with 1M-2D-3H as GF. Look a couple of posts back for the comments.

Both Fred Gitelman and Justin Lall appear to follow my suggested style so some very good players do rebid the

major.


Boze thinks bidding this losing bridge, both Fred and Justin believe otherwise.


I like my chances if both Fred and Justin play the same style that I suggest.


It might not be "losing bridge." as Boze commented. *****



If I bid 1H-1N-2H and later I compete with 3Ds, I will have shown my 6-4 shape and limited values.

If I count correctly here, I will have shown 10 cards and my real shape.*****


Broze's point is that 2D shows more of opener's hand than does 2H (i.e. 9 > 6). The sample hand he posted suggests he didn't miss the fact that opener has a 6-card heart suit.

****He showed 9 cards and he does not limit his values while also concealing a 6 card major.

If the other pair compete or partner bids now, the 2D bid blocks a rebid of Hs 'if' you

follow a style where M-m-M bids show a goodish hand(GF?)


If you rebid the major at your second bid, you can bid now bid 3Ds showing your real shape and limited values.

I will have shown 10 cards, my 6M and limited values. Bidding 2Ds will still have shown 9 cards and you

will still not have shown the 6M.*****

[spotlight7]

awm, on 2017-June-22, 09:40, said:

I agree with Broze that rebidding diamonds is best. The issue is that partner may have a really big fit for diamonds, in which case it will be a far better strain (maybe even a game), but he will never introduce the suit after a 2♥ rebid. For example the following hands seem to be likely passes of 1♥-1NT-2♥:


*****The issue might be missing a 6-2H fit. Partner could hardly compete with

a doubleton heart 'if' opener rebids 2Ds and the other pair now bids 2S or 3Cs.*****


Axx x QJxxx Kxxx
Qxx x Qxxxxx Axx


****There was no mention of 1H-1N* being alerted or 'being a forcing NT reply.

Given natural methods(not 2/1bidding) your first example is a 1H-2D bid.

So much for missing that 'big' D fit with that example hand****


****Counting the missing spades(8 of them here) If they bid 2Ss, either

partner could compete in Ds and the 'big' D fit could again be found.*****

if we give opener:.

Kx JTxxxx AKxx x

Game in diamonds is not unreasonable opposite either hand. Partner can see that his hand is huge after a 2♦ rebid, but will not be excited after the rebid of his singleton heart.

If the hearts are such that they play well as trumps opposite a singleton and the diamonds are weak, it is okay to rebid hearts:

Kx KQTxxx Kxxx x

This one is not much of a game opposite the example hands, and it is at least possible that you will play 2♥+1 at MP (beating 3♦+1).

Note that similar "really big hand for hearts" responders don't exist, since they would already be raising opposite five hearts (the sixth heart cannot turn "no fit" into "really big fit").

[awm]

Both opponents have already passed. I'm not very worried about the auction:

1♥-pass-1nt-pass
2♦-2♠

In fact I'm not sure with what hand opponents cannot bid over one heart but will come in after we both described our hands! Double over 2♦ is marginally possible but this still gives responder the chance to preference to hearts or raise diamonds.

BTW I often play non forcing 1nt (sayc style) and would not really consider any call but 1nt on my example hands. A misfitting ten count is not really an invite opposite a modern opening and our 2♦ response is still inv+.

[spotlight7]

awm, on 2017-June-23, 13:13, said:

Both opponents have already passed. I'm not very worried about the auction:


****You are worried about not missing a 'big' D fit, but not worried

about the other pair with 8/9 Ss and also with a likely C fit bidding?


A number of players like to 'pre balance' and here they have

have a spade fit plus a likely club fit.


The first pass could be because of a 'lack of D support' to make a takeout X.


After 1H-1N-2D-X shows the black suits.


1♥-pass-1nt-pass
2♦-2♠


In fact I'm not sure with what hand opponents cannot bid over one heart but will come in after we both described our hands! Double over 2♦ is marginally possible but this still gives responder the chance to preference to hearts or raise diamonds.


*****If all partner can do is bid 3Ds, a 3S bid after 1H-1N-2D-X-3D-? is all but assured in a decent game.

If you have that 'big' D fit. They have 8-9Ss and a club fit as well.*****


BTW I often play non forcing 1nt (sayc style) and would not really consider any call but 1nt on my example hands. A misfitting ten count is not really an invite opposite a modern opening and our 2♦ response is still inv+.

+


****IMHO you are in minority here. The problem hand does not say or imply a forcing NT*,

so most(nearly all?) players would bid 1H-2D with your first example hand in a non 2/1 setting.


I strive to balance and a X after a 2D rebid is a good time to compete.

I would often X after 1H-1N-2D with 4Ss and 4/5Cs. If they do not

compete, check their pulse(they could be dead)


If they allow you to play in 2 of a suit, you are often getting a bad trump break.


Take your example hand and deal out the rest of the cards.

With a non max. D hand, all you have is a raise to 3Ds with a 9/10 card D fit, the other pair can make

a spade contract. Perhaps even a spade game.


Opposite that 3=1=6=3 second example of yours. They have an 8 card spade fit to AJ10

They also have 9 clubs with KQJ10 plus the AKQ of hearts. Looks like a lot of tricks for the other pair.


If you have a weaker version of your 3=1=6=3 hand and you raise to 3Ds, they have a likely 9-10 tricks in spades.


Are you still not worried about the other pair bidding when they can make 9-10 tricks in spades?*****