[The_Badger]

Support doubles are useful but when you can't use them how ready are you to raise partner's assumed 4 card major response with only 3 card support?

I recognise there are many hands that might warrant this, the vulnerability, knowing what your partner bids, etc. but generally what types of distribution do you feel confident raising with just 3 card support.

This is the hand that elicited this question. Let's assume IMPs, all non vulnerable for all answers.

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The bidding went 1♣ - 1♦ - 1♥ - Pass - and West instead of rebidding 2♣ bid 2♥ (Things didn't go well after that but I share part of the blame for being overenthusiastic.) But was 2♥ a feasible bid given that there are plenty of hands where partner will pass 2♣ and 4♥ is a reasonable contract

But let's modified that hand slightly

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Now would 2♥ be such a bad rebid by West with this hand, for example? I have had a quick check of the forums, and there doesn't seem to be any post that covers this. And I'll be interested in your views, even beyond the poll.

[awm]

All of these shapes are okay by me, and in fact I will sometimes raise with on three with 4432 (normally not with Tx or better doubleton or with my second four-card suit biddable at the one-level). However, I think seven-card suits ought to be rebid virtually always, and would not raise on the example hands in this thread.

[Cyberyeti]

This is a large part of the reason why we play 1♥ shows 5 so this is an easy raise.

[nige1]

Deleted

[Kaitlyn S]

The_Badger, on 2017-July-09, 05:45, said:

But was 2♥ a feasible bid given that there are plenty of hands where partner will pass 2♣ and 4♥ is a reasonable contract

But let's modified that hand slightly

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Now would 2♥ be such a bad rebid by West with this hand, for example?

I'd like to discuss this part of the post.

Recently I had a poll here and on BridgeWinners about responder's rebid with Axx, QTxxxxx, JTxx, void after 1C-1H-2C. Most players rebid 2H but some who bid 2C were defiant, unwilling to consider that anyone with bridge talent would bid 2H. Let's switch the jack and ace so it pairs with your example hand.

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4H is a decent contract if the opponents don't lead trump. Would you get there? It's not hard to see that you'd rather play 2H which is virtually cold than 2C which rates to lose two hearts and four clubs. If you're playing with one of the passers of 2C in my poll, maybe you need to raise to 2H with this hand.

However, as most players rebid 2H with the East hand, I'm not sure I can agree with the statement that there are plenty of hands that make 4H where partner bids 2C. Or at least I'll disagree that 4H is biddable and makeable when partner bids 2C. If you're playing IMPs, there's not much loss in making 90 or 110 instead of 170 when game isn't biddable. For if responder has six hearts, most players are rebidding them, and minimum repsonders with five hearts aren't likely to move even when you support the hearts. Invitational responders are almost always going to find another bid after 2C (with five hearts, this bid will probably be 2NT, 3C, or 2D.) So I don't see the rush to raise hearts here.

Let's try the original hand.

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This time 2C is a fine IMP contract as 4H has major handling problems.

And to answer your question, I'm one of those people who virtually always has four cards for a raise and my judgment tells me to raise on all of your examples in the poll.

[steve2005]

5431 why would the second suit need to be poor to raise on 3?
with 3-4-1-5 without reversing values after 1♣-1♠ whether you raise spades has very little to do with how good your hearts are

[The_Badger]

Kaitlyn S, on 2017-July-09, 09:30, said:

However, as most players rebid 2H with the East hand, I'm not sure I can agree with the statement that there are plenty of hands that make 4H where partner bids 2C.

I agree with everything you say in your post, Kaitlyn. Perhaps it was a bit of a generalisation on my part saying that 4♥ is a reasonable contract, but it only takes a card 'tweak or two' on both East/West hands for 4♥ to be not just reasonable but makeable, with the bidding remaining the same.

This is the part of the point I am driving at in the post: when is it permissible to raise with even off-shaped hands such as 7-3-2-1 or even 6-4-3-0, or even the balanced 4-4-3-2 as awm suggested?

[The_Badger]

steve2005, on 2017-July-09, 09:51, said:

5431 why would the second suit need to be poor to raise on 3?
with 3-4-1-5 without reversing values after 1♣-1♠ whether you raise spades has very little to do with how good your hearts are

So right steve. Apologies. I didn't analyse all the bidding sequences available before posting. (I was more interested in the shapes beyond 5-4-3-1 which to my mind is my perfect shape to make a 3 card major raise.)

[mikestar13]

I raise with three cards and a stiff or void somewhere unless I love the alternative bid. With three card and a doubleton, only if I hate the alternative bid. With 4333 if you put a gun to my head (if I'm sure it's loaded).

[rmnka447]

I'd opt for 2 ♣ on both suggested opener's hands.

With responder's hand over 2 ♣, the question is whether to rebid 2 ♥ over the 2 ♣ rebid. First, responder should consider what opener didn't rebid. Opener didn't rebid 1 ♠ so should have less than 3 ♠. Opener didn't rebid 1 NT so doesn't have a ♦ stopper. Opener didn't raise ♥, so has less than 4 ♥. So the worst that partner could be is 3-1-4-5, but that means LHO is void in ♦ which is unlikely. So partner is likely to at least 1 ♥ and 2 ♥ seems OK to bid.

[Winstonm]

In my view the likelihood of partner holding 5 cards is more important than what I hold, as we are looking for at least an 8-card fit, so the auction is more important than my holding, unless I suspect the Moysian will play well, which means good cards in partner's suit.

Because of the suits skipped, there is an inference that partner has 5 or more cards in the auction 1C-p-1S than any other 1 over 1. 1D-1H has no such inference. I would be more likely to raise the first auction with 3-card support, if I had no other good rebid available.

[iandayre]

I can't think of any hands where I would raise with 3 cards if a support double is available. I do often raise a major in uncontested auctions from 1 to 2 with 3 card support - Kxx, QJx, AQxxx, xx I would open 1D and raise either major.

[gordontd]

iandayre, on 2017-July-10, 12:15, said:

I can't think of any hands where I would raise with 3 cards if a support double is available.

That's not the situation under discussion.

[Vampyr]

iandayre, on 2017-July-10, 12:15, said:

I can't think of any hands where I would raise with 3 cards if a support double is available. I do often raise a major in uncontested auctions from 1 to 2 with 3 card support - Kxx, QJx, AQxxx, xx I would open 1D and raise either major.

Do you play any form of checkback?

[iandayre]

gordontd, on 2017-July-10, 12:33, said:

That's not the situation under discussion.

Perhaps you are right. The name of the thread "in the absence of a support double" is confusing then. "In an uncontested auction" would be more accurate.

No, I don't play any sort of checkback after a single major raise by opener. But I can pass 2NT or 3NT, and, if partner bids another suit, I will not return to the major if accepting a game try.

[gordontd]

iandayre, on 2017-July-10, 12:59, said:

Perhaps you are right. The name of the thread "in the absence of a support double" is confusing then. "In an uncontested auction" would be more accurate.

You can't conceive of a contested auction without support doubles?

[Kaitlyn S]

iandayre, on 2017-July-10, 12:59, said:

Perhaps you are right. The name of the thread "in the absence of a support double" is confusing then. "In an uncontested auction" would be more accurate.

While confusing, it's a better title. When I see it, having already read the thread, I know which thread it is. When I read the title "In an uncontested auction", it's like those awful titles like "Your bid?" or "What's your choice?" which give you no clue several days later what the thread was about when someone replies to it late.

[miamijd]

I personally don't like raising on 3 and will strain not to do it. That being said, there is one hand type where you don't have much choice: 5431 with a small stiff, where bidding the 4-card suit would be a reverse:

Kxx AJxx x Axxxx

1C 1S
??

I like 2S better than 1NT (possible) or 2c (awful). But make the hand:

xxx Axxx Q AKxxx

and I will rebid 1NT.

Just my two cents. Luckily, I don't seem to run into this problem very much.

Mike

[Vampyr]

iandayre, on 2017-July-10, 12:59, said:

Perhaps you are right. The name of the thread "in the absence of a support double" is confusing then. "In an uncontested auction" would be more accurate.

No, I don't play any sort of checkback after a single major raise by opener. But I can pass 2NT or 3NT, and, if partner bids another suit, I will not return to the major if accepting a game try.

???? Obviously I meant checkback after a 1NT rebid, assuming that you are playing a strong NT since you opened 1♦ on the hand you gave.

[mcphee]

Quote from meckwell, balanced hands rebid NT, no exceptions. When holding a short suit raising with 3 is ok when no other rebid suitable. 1-3-4-5 I open 1C and raise H, reverse the minors you can bid 2C. When partners pass over a 5 card D suit to show a 4 card major when less than game values, raising with 3 pups may not work out well when they have Jxxx or Qxxx and a minimum hand.