[barmar]

blackshoe, on 2017-August-01, 20:38, said:

One could argue that a poor player always has a good reason for going into the tank, since most of them have little clue what they're doing, and presumably are trying to figure out what they should be doing.

True, it could possibly be argued that tanking is their normal tempo.

[blackshoe]

barmar, on 2017-August-02, 08:15, said:

True, it could possibly be argued that tanking is their normal tempo.

In fact, I did say that the other day when my LHO asked if I agreed that partner had broken tempo — after she passed, his partner bid, and I bid. He apparently found it incredulous that I would not agree. I didn't agree with his timing, either, but we didn't get into that.

[wanoff]

gordontd, on 2017-August-01, 03:51, said:

I've seen good players do this on a number of occasions.

Not really what this post is about.
The good players you observed may have been tired, slow witted or cheats.

[Vampyr]

wanoff, on 2017-August-02, 19:39, said:

Not really what this post is about.
The good players you observed may have been tired, slow witted or cheats.

I would not say that the frequent offenders are tired or slow-witted. No, they just think the rules don't apply to them; they are some of the top players, so they deserve more time than everyone else. Opponents sometimes even miss their meal break (breaks on Sundays are short) but the directors never seem to challenge them.

One of these great players is fond of playing a card in a suit in which there is a 2-way finesse, and then going into the tank for 3 or 4 minutes. It is something hard to be on the other side of this. Do I take a sip of my drink, do I fold my cards up, look at my watch... I think that probably the best course of action for the opponents is to mirror each other --i.e. one takes a sip of his drink, partner takes a sip of her drink etc. It's not illegal communication, because both players know who holds the missing queen. It is anti-communication.

Of course it is a very good idea, after about a minute and a half has gone by, to smile sweetly and say, "If you weren't such an ethical player I'd swear you were looking for a tell".

I mean I hate to use the c word, but when you played the jack, the most likely outcome was a small card on your left. Could you not have considered this possibility before leading? Do ethics go out the window when you are trying to give good value to your client?

[barmar]

There's nothing unethical about hoping for a tell from LHO when you lead the Jack. But if you don't notice a hitch, you're back to having to guess. I suppose a good player should anticipate this, and have made up his mind about how he'll play if he doesn't notice anything. But I think there's some psychology going on here -- we tend to postpone tough decisions as long as possible. I'm pretty sure I've occasionally gone into the tank a bit after I've led instead of before, and I may even have noticed it a few times when operating vugraph with national/world champions playing.

[weejonnie]

I suppose that if the CoC specified 50/50 for all boards taken away then that is what must happens - and by entering the contest you accept the results.

You can ask the Director to award a PP for unduly slow play under law 90B2

You can probably ask for a ruling under law 74 A2 AND 74 A3 (extraneous action that might affect enjoyment of the game/ failure to maintain even tempo.)

[Vampyr]

barmar, on 2017-August-03, 10:44, said:

There's nothing unethical about hoping for a tell from LHO when you lead the Jack. But if you don't notice a hitch, you're back to having to guess. I suppose a good player should anticipate this, and have made up his mind about how he'll play if he doesn't notice anything. But I think there's some psychology going on here -- we tend to postpone tough decisions as long as possible. I'm pretty sure I've occasionally gone into the tank a bit after I've led instead of before, and I may even have noticed it a few times when operating vugraph with national/world champions playing.

I disagree with you. I am disappointed that you believe that forcing the opponents to sit there for several minutes under stress, afraid that anything they do or don't do might be a tell, is OK.

[barmar]

Vampyr, on 2017-August-03, 21:24, said:

I disagree with you. I am disappointed that you believe that forcing the opponents to sit there for several minutes under stress, afraid that anything they do or don't do might be a tell, is OK.

Is it really much less stressful if they make you sit there for several minutes BEFORE the lead, possibly looking for a tell then? Ideally they should just get it over with and guess (that's what I usually do), but not everyone thinks that way.

And what about if they're reacting to an opponent's lead? LHO leads a small card, there's QTx in dummy and Axx in hand, or something like that. Maybe they should have planned ahead for what they'd do if someone led through this combination, but there are lots of things to think about when planning a hand, and things change as you learn more about the hand. At the point where they force your decision, you may have to go into the tank trying to remember all the cards that were played, how they relate to what you know from the auction, etc.

[Vampyr]

barmar, on 2017-August-04, 23:54, said:

Is it really much less stressful if they make you sit there for several minutes BEFORE the lead, possibly looking for a tell then? Ideally they should just get it over with and guess (that's what I usually do), but not everyone thinks that way.

Before the lead you don't know what they're going to lead, so there is one pressure of any sort.

Quote

And what about if they're reacting to an opponent's lead? LHO leads a small card, there's QTx in dummy and Axx in hand, or something like that. Maybe they should have planned ahead for what they'd do if someone led through this combination, but there are lots of things to think about when planning a hand, and things change as you learn more about the hand. At the point where they force your decision, you may have to go into the tank trying to remember all the cards that were played, how they relate to what you know from the auction, etc.

How likely is this to be deliberate? Perhaps 2% at most? Compared to 100%?