[GrahamJson]

I have just checked “The complete book of take out doubles” by Mike Lawrence and “Double trouble” by Sally Horton. Both indicate that the west hand is unsuitable for a TOX. ML spends several pages discussing whether it is ok to double when holding a doubleton in an unbid major. He concludes that the hand needs to be very strong for such an action. In fact he gives as an example a stronger hand than the west one above as one where you should overcall because you lack three cards in one major. He doesn’t discuss doubling with less than two cards in an unbid major, but the inference is that you need close to a 2C opening in order to do this. SH more or less states this explicitly saying that you need game in your own hand before you can double with a side suit shortage.

[sfi]

Unlike others, I think the West hand has enough playing strength to double and bid hearts. The only issue is that someone might make a big jump in spades, and for tactical reasons I would normally choose 1H rather than double.

On the second round of bidding, West should just continue with the original plan and bid 4H. 4D is the cue bid to use when showing a good hand with spade support, so 4H is just natural. North may be psyching or (as in the actual hand) it may simply not matter.

3NT should have some modicum of spade support, so East's bidding looks fine.

[Cyberyeti]

 sfi, on 2018-July-17, 03:42, said:

3NT should have some modicum of spade support, so East's bidding looks fine.

Absolutely disagree with this, you are pressured by partner's 3♠ bid which to me shows at least 6 spades, and you are telling partner that you heard his spade bid and chose 3N. To me, void, Axx, Axx, AKQJxxx would not be atypical.

[sfi]

True, that's a possible hand. But as East I'd want to be in 6C and we can get there via ... - 4S - 5C - 6C.

[msjennifer]

My personal answers to the four questions posed are as under.The answers are based on the bidding given in the Post.1)One Heart.2)Two Spade.3) PASS4)PASSI feel that the double and then bid hearts at the next opportunity requires 8 winners which this hand does not have.Furthermore had the bidding gone 1D-x-2S-P- 3/4 S then one dare not bid 4H.The given hand deserves an intermediate 2H bid which I believe is very rarely played these days.Some players do play it 50percent weak and 50percent intermediate (a2H overcall).An overcall will at least tell partner to lead hearts if he is on lead.I think that as per normal,a Two suiter hand does not use a double as an overcall.The given hand is a Two suiter hand and in strictly my opinion ,which is a personal opinion strictly,my overcall will be one Heart although the hand as one feels is a wee bit weaker for a double.(and unsuitable also).

[heart76]

 smerriman, on 2018-July-16, 02:52, said:

---

One thing I always do on a post mortem is to look back at what went wrong before you got stuck.
Although some have absolute criteria to decide anything, much more is left to partnership agreement nowadays.
So if you run and don't listen you never learn.

I would open a preemptive 2♠ or multi with E's cards. White vs red, a void in H, as low as 2-3 HCP.
You miss the chance in the first round and then decide to preempt over partner's TOX? With 6 bad cards?? No way. You don't even have to bid, so bid a calm 1♠ now or chicken out again and pass.
Ask yourself: who am I preempting? If p has ♠, I take away the space to decide about bidding 4. If he doesn't...
3NT is not nice either. I'd ask what the double is and pass and wait for the bad news or XX if it's AGREED as SOS. We may play a lesser evil in 4♣ or 4♥.

Where do I put the blame?
3♠ gets 90% for me. I understand the expectation of tolerance for the other 3 suits, but that does not apply to strong hands.
Like the 2♣ opening it's generally 20/22+ points, but it's also less with 9 tricks...
10% goes to 3NT. Just 10% since it did not get X and it got removed to 4♠ anyway!
Actually, this makes me reconsider: E had not learnt to preempt right away beforehand; was inconsistent in his 2nd bid and did not learn anything from p's 3NT...

[Cyberyeti]

 sfi, on 2018-July-17, 05:08, said:

True, that's a possible hand. But as East I'd want to be in 6C and we can get there via ... - 4S - 5C - 6C.

You can, but W will pass 4♠ expecting something wild like 8 small spades and out, bidding 5♣ is very wrong.

[sfi]

And here we disagree. The hand you posit would have bid 4S initially. Whatever East is showing, it can't be that.

[Cyberyeti]

 sfi, on 2018-July-17, 07:06, said:

And here we disagree. The hand you posit would have bid 4S initially. Whatever East is showing, it can't be that.

It very much shouldn't, either as an opener in first seat or over the double. Barbecues partner with any really big hand short in spades.

3♠ says:

I couldn't open 2/3/4♠ in first seat

I make no promises about the worth of my hand in any other denomination.

If you have any sort of fit this may actually be worth a lot more than the point count.

[nekthen]

This is an evaluation question for West. IMO this is not a particularly strong hand, unless I get some support, so I vote 1♥ not dbl
As for East, his (I assume male) behaviour is as bad as his bidding.
I can sympathise with not opening a weak 2, but I would pass 1♥ from N, I have a weak hand, but I do have the spades. Partner has either
1. A regular take out dbl. This looks and smells unlikely
2. A balanced hand too strong for 1N. Possible and he will be able to bid it later
3. A single-suited rock crusher. most likely and almost certainly hearts

Partner thinks he has type 3. I disagree but that's bridge. I am glad to know ML and SH agree!

What can South do now? Pass and hope or bid 1N and hope.
If he passes West can double and NS will have to settle for playing doubled somewhere
After 1N West cannot double, because he will be showing hand 2. If he passes he is indicating hand 1, so must bid 2♥, which gets passed out

[LBengtsson]

The worst bid is South double of 3♠!!! Not support, not TOX, not on this planet LOL

[Cyberyeti]

 LBengtsson, on 2018-July-17, 08:46, said:

The worst bid is South double of 3♠!!! Not support, not TOX, not on this planet LOL

Agreed, I'd have passed over it.

[miamijd]

For what their worth (which isn't a lot), here are my thoughts:

1. Over South's 1D, there are three good choices, not two.

A. X is OK. The only possible trouble comes when partner has something like KJ seventh of spades and out and decides to bid 4S (normal enough).

B. 1H is fine, too. There are two potential problem auctions. First, it might go all pass with partner having enough for game. For those who say this never happens, exchange the Q and 2 of hearts and that's probably exactly what would happen. Second, if partner bids 1S, what do you do now? You don't have a forcing heart call. 4H? Which brings us to the third option ...

C. 4H. You have a five loser hand with great hearts and a spade void. Looks like a good time to shoot out 4H and X the opponents if they bid 4S. Partner will get the message. This bid doesn't fare too well on this hand, but I think it's worth considering.

2. Over 1H, East's 3S bid is perfect. He just picked the wrong hand for it.

3. South did you a favor with his X of 3S. Why would you want to bid 3NT over South's X? You know your partner has nothing but a pile of spades. You either pass and hope your high cards are enough for him to make it (he's down one, but you can't know that) or you bid 4H, which is no longer a cue bid over South's X (if you had a good hand with spade support, you would XX, not make a 4H cue bid). Yes, I see that 3NT works out fine here, but you can't know your partner has the diamond cards you need.

4. East should pass 3NT- 100%. It certainly sounds like (A) West has a very strong hand with a club suit and (B) South has a spade stack. When the opponents make a penalty X of 3x, it's generally not a good idea to play 4x.

5. East should not leave the table in a huff. Someone please notify the BBO recorder

Cheers,
mike

[Tramticket]

 Cyberyeti, on 2018-July-17, 05:02, said:

Absolutely disagree with this, you are pressured by partner's 3♠ bid which to me shows at least 6 spades, and you are telling partner that you heard his spade bid and chose 3N. To me, void, Axx, Axx, AKQJxxx would not be atypical.

If you hold A3, A974, AKQ, Q54 you are too strong to overall 1NT and will presumably double with the intention of bidding NT at the lowest level.

For me, this is not only a possible hand for West's 3NT bid in the given sequence, it it the most likely hand type and the shape that East should 'expect'. You might argue that East has shown a six-card suit and that West should therefore raise spades, but this does not get across the strength and hand type. Of course the auction has been squeezed and the 3NT bid has to cope with multiple hand types, but I don't think the 4S bid is as silly as you suggest.

EDIT: miamjid of course gives the correct reason why 4S might be silly - if South's double of 3S is penalty then of course 4S is silly 🤐

Actually I have no idea what the double was!

[iandayre]

On overall strength, the W hand is a minimum for double-and-bid. But the S void is a huge minus. I would overcall 1H.

It's true that E has a possible 2S opener at favorable. Having not done that, 3S is exactly correct.

Now back to W as it went. H spots call for action, so 3NT OK. E has bid the hand and should pass, but I suppose most would go on to 4S.

I have no idea what S was doubling on at any point.

[heart76]

 miamijd, on 2018-July-17, 10:47, said:

2. Over 1H, East's 3S bid is perfect. He just picked the wrong hand for it.

Is this irony or are you actually serious?

Edit as I read another post saying the same.

Who is 3♠ preempting? It is based on pure supposition that it will preempt the opponents to reach game in ♥!
Fact is, do you want to preempt? Open 2♠.
You missed the chance AND you RHO bids after your pd's TOX? PASS:
- the opponents do not have a fit yet, so your supposedly LoTT bid is thrown out blind
- if your pd reopens then you have a 2nd chance for your ♠

I guess the whole thing goes back to the original point: can the TOX contain a hand without ♠ tolerance?
If you don't allow this you have some kind of consistency, I suppose also with the school of "sound" weak 2s that have to start from 7(?) HCP.

[rmnka447]

 Cyberyeti, on 2018-July-17, 02:12, said:

I think you're underestimating the W hand, let's give W something very normal, minimum but perfect, Axxx, xxxx, x, AKxx, your 4 count will make 4♠ opposite this with spades 2:1 and may not even need that. 3♠ to me is a shapely bad hand, 2♠ to me may imply more strength and less shape.

I have no problem with your comments. As I said in my analysis, if the 3 ♠ just shows a long suit then I think pass is correct. But that depends on partner having that same interpretation of what that bid means. With a presumably pick up partner on BBO, that's quite a stretch.

I'm not sure I'd have a clear understanding of what 3 ♠ meant as an advance after a double even if made by some long time partners. If there's likely to be some misunderstanding, then it's probably better to not make that bid.

[miamijd]

 heart76, on 2018-July-17, 12:42, said:

Is this irony or are you actually serious?

Edit as I read another post saying the same.

Who is 3♠ preempting? It is based on pure supposition that it will preempt the opponents to reach game in ♥!
Fact is, do you want to preempt? Open 2♠.
You missed the chance AND you RHO bids after your pd's TOX? PASS:
- the opponents do not have a fit yet, so your supposedly LoTT bid is thrown out blind
- if your pd reopens then you have a 2nd chance for your ♠

I guess the whole thing goes back to the original point: can the TOX contain a hand without ♠ tolerance?
If you don't allow this you have some kind of consistency, I suppose also with the school of "sound" weak 2s that have to start from 7(?) HCP.

3S is exactly the sort of hand East has. 1sp here would be a free bid, so it's a great 5 to 8 or so (instead of 0-bad 8). 2sp would be a great 8 to 11. With 12+ you would cue-bid 2D. So what is 3S? A pile of spades and not a lot of strength. Your partner has Xed a 1d opener; how many spades do you expect him to have? At least 3, likely 4, right? So the LOTT says get to the three level now and describe your hand in one fell swoop. Textbook.

Yes, if partner has 0-1 spades he'll have to bid 3NT or 4x.

Cheers,
mike

[Cyberyeti]

 heart76, on 2018-July-17, 12:42, said:

Is this irony or are you actually serious?

Edit as I read another post saying the same.

Who is 3♠ preempting? It is based on pure supposition that it will preempt the opponents to reach game in ♥!
Fact is, do you want to preempt? Open 2♠.
You missed the chance AND you RHO bids after your pd's TOX? PASS:
- the opponents do not have a fit yet, so your supposedly LoTT bid is thrown out blind
- if your pd reopens then you have a 2nd chance for your ♠

I guess the whole thing goes back to the original point: can the TOX contain a hand without ♠ tolerance?
If you don't allow this you have some kind of consistency, I suppose also with the school of "sound" weak 2s that have to start from 7(?) HCP.

X can only not contain spade tolerance if it's a good enough hand to deal with partner assuming it has spade tolerance. This one is borderline.

To Tramticket: on your strong hand with ♠Ax when partner bids 3♠, without the X you bid 4♠, now you pass or make a business XX if you have one available.

[helene_t]

Opposite a passed hand W might consider a direct 4H. Maybe E should have passed 3nt.

But there's no right and wrongs here. Good learning opportunity for sharpening your agreements.