[imadraggin]

Our Duplicate Bridge Book Club is doing "25 Steps to Learning 2 Over 1," by Thurston, which does not mention the Bergen 3NT bid in the Bergen chapter. It seems to me that bid would negate the need for 2 over 1. How do they work together?

[Stephen Tu]

3nt is a limited choice of games bid with 4333, if you choose to play it Bergen's way. (There are alternative useful gadgets some players prefer). You would still want to use a 2/1 bid on many gf unbalanced/semi-bal or balanced 4432/5332 hands, hands without a major fit, and hands too strong for 3nt.

[The_Badger]

Welcome to the forum, imadraggin

2/1 is a completely different system than Acol, but over on this side of the Atlantic we have a similar systematic raise called the 3NT Pudding Raise. With four card majors (as played by Acol) this shows a balanced 4333 hand with four card trump support. The idea is to offer opener a choice of games in either 3NT or 4 of a major, or an opportunity to cue bid below game, depending on the suitability of the hands.

2/1 has far more options to reach game without employing a 3NT bid, however if hands are relatively balanced/semi-balanced and there are a lack of ruffing possibilities, 3NT might offer a better score than 4M, especially at matchpoints. Even with a 5-3 major suit fit.

There's also another consideration to take into account: right-siding a potential contract. If responder has an unprotected honour card, playing the hand from his side of the table might be only way game can be made. And also, just bidding 3NT as a response provides little information to the defenders, too.

[helene_t]

The_Badger, on 2019-January-24, 23:08, said:

And also, just bidding 3NT as a response provides little information to the defenders, too.

But for opener to be able to make an informed decision to pass 3NT, the bid needs to show specifically 4333 (maybe some would even say specifically with the 4-card being a minor), so if the end contract is 3NT (or 4NT or 6NT), defenders have an almost perfect count of the hand.

[kuhchung]

absolutely hate the 4333 3N raise

[smerriman]

kuhchung, on 2019-February-04, 17:43, said:

absolutely hate the 4333 3N raise

I recall you saying this for the reason Helene mentioned - if you end up in 3NT, the defenders have a near perfect count.

But the times opener chooses to pass 3NT, 4M is often very unlikely to make, and I can't see how you can avoid it via any other bidding sequence. I'd rather be in an easy 3NT with the defenders knowing more than an impossible 4M.

Perhaps there's some other way of getting to 3NT that I'm not aware of.

[helene_t]

smerriman, on 2019-February-04, 18:22, said:

I recall you saying this for the reason Helene mentioned - if you end up in 3NT, the defenders have a near perfect count.

But the times opener chooses to pass 3NT, 4M is often very unlikely to make, and I can't see how you can avoid it via any other bidding sequence. I'd rather be in an easy 3NT with the defenders knowing more than an impossible 4M.

Perhaps there's some other way of getting to 3NT that I'm not aware of.

Without the 3NT raise, you would start with 2♣ (maybe 1♠ if the opening bid is 1♥ and you have four spades), and now it depends on your rebid agreements. If opener must rebid 2NT to show a balanced hand, responder will now show the support and opener can now still bid 3NT unless this would be (non)serious. Alternatively, responder could simply bid 3NT. So maybe
1M-2♣
2NT-3NT
or
1M-2♣
2NT-3M
3NT

In other styles it could go
1M-2♣
2M-3M
3NT-pass

This all implies that opener shows the 5332 pattern and responder then makes a decision. This, of course, also gives defenders a near-perfect count.

OTOH, if your style is
1M-2♣
2♦*-2♠
2NT-3NT
it is now responder who has shown 4333 while opener declares and could still in theory be 5242 with ♥AQ.

If you want to reach 3NT with these hands while concealing opener's hand, you would need to let opener shows specifically 5332 without responder showing the 3-card support and without opener bidding 2NT on the way. And even then, you could argue that you won't make as a good a decision because not all 5332-4333 hands should play 3NT. It also depends on texture.

All this said, there are other problems with the 3NT raise. It takes away a lot of bidding space. How am I supposed to respond to it with a 5♠4♥ COG hand? With 5♠5♥ when I want to bid 4♥ to play? How with a one-suiter that wants to make a control bid or show shortage? How with 5M4m or 5M5m and slam interest? If 4NT is quanti, how do I ask for keycards?

It seems more logical to me to use 3NT for some kind of preemtive raise, for example a weak splinter in an unknown suit.