[FelicityR]

I'm not keen on dragging up a response on rubbish, but I felt that this hand justified a response after partner opened. However, after his next bid I felt stymied. A reverse is forcing, is it not, but I was very tempted to pass. Playing MPs, what do you feel is the best bid here? And would it make any difference at IMPs? And as always thank you for your replies.

---

Edit: My partner and I were playing a basic 2/1 system (15-17 NT) where a rebid of 2NT by opener after a 1M response shows 18-19 balanced

[smerriman]

Assuming you're playing a standard approach over reverses (eg see primer), seems like a normal 2♥ to me. You could be making slam for all you know; pass isn't an option.

[Tramticket]

My plan is to give false preference to clubs - but the response will depend on your methods. In the absence of discussion I would assume that 3♣ is non-forcing and would bid 3♣.


If 2NT is some kind of Lebensohl type bid with 3C forcing, I bid 2NT to get to 3♣. Or possibly the 4th suit is used as the weak bid.

[pescetom]

It's an automatic 2♥ for me.

Tramticket, on 2019-May-30, 05:28, said:

My plan is to give false preference to clubs - but the response will depend on your methods. In the absence of discussion I would assume that 3♣ is non-forcing and would bid 3♣.

If 2NT is some kind of Lebensohl type bid with 3C forcing, I bid 2NT to get to 3♣.

The way we play 2NT Moderateur/Lebehsohl it denies weak 5-card ♥ (which would be 2♥) and any other bid (including 3♣) is game forcing.

[rmnka447]

Your hand is clearly a 1 ♥ bid initially.

Your next bid is a matter of how you bid over reverses and what hands you'd reverse on (soft vs. strong reverses). First of all, your hand is too weak for a positive response. If you and partner have agreed to rebid a hand with a 5 card suit no matter how weak, then 2 ♥ is right. Otherwise, make the potential "drop dead" bid you've decided on.

If you've never discussed bidding continuations over reverses with your partner, then maybe just bidding 2 ♥ is right. It, at least, takes up the least bidding space allowing partner to continue telling what the reverse is about.

3 ♣ as a non-forcing weak bid has been passe for years. It's become more common in recent years to use the preference as a positive bid and use some sort of Lebensohl structure for sign off (especially with soft reverses) or just use 2 NT as a potentially weak bid.

Most of my partners and I prefer to play strong reverses and use 2 NT or fourth suit whichever is cheaper as the potential drop dead bid. I'd bid 2 ♠ wit these players.

I do play with 1 excellent player who likes to play softer reverses and we use Ingbermann as the potential sign off. I'd bid 2 NT Ingbermann with this player.

Don't pass a reverse!! Partner's hand is still unlimited.

[Cyberyeti]

This one is interesting for me because for me the reverse IS limited by the failure to rebid a GF unbal 2N. I would definitely still bid at IMPs and probably at MPs too, the danger hand is something like A,KJx,AQxx,Axxxx where 4♥ is on ice.

[pescetom]

I wonder if the OP and some other posters may be thinking about a softer reverse than we would play with this sequence. For us it's about 17-21 HCP, forcing but not to game and shows a natural 5-4 minors.

[FelicityR]

Cyberyeti, on 2019-May-30, 09:12, said:

This one is interesting for me because for me the reverse IS limited by the failure to rebid a GF unbal 2N. I would definitely still bid at IMPs and probably at MPs too, the danger hand is something like A,KJx,AQxx,Axxxx where 4♥ is on ice.

Original post has been edited to reflect the system we were playing that evening. Basic 2/1

[JLilly]

Bid whatever you and your partner have agreed is a weak option after opener's reverse! If you have no agreement, make one

In the games I play in my neck of ACBLland, Lebensohl over a reverse is uncommon; most pairs use Ingberman (cheaper of the fourth suit and 2NT is the only weak, non-GF rebid by responder) or have both 2M and 2NT as non-GF options. But how your partner in your area would likely take your bids of 2♥, 2♠, 2NT, and 3♣ absent discussion I have no idea. If I were at the table and had to guess, I'd probably go with the cheapest natural bid, in this case, 2♥.

[mikeh]

At the risk of blowing my own horn, take a look at the primer on reverse bidding pegged to this part of the forum. I have changed my own approach a bit since I wrote that, lowering the requirements for a reverse a little bit, but I hope that the post and the comments are still of some use.

Leaving that to one side, pass is 'out' at any form of scoring, if only because it is entirely possible that partner (a) has only 3 diamonds and/or (b) has a great hand in support of hearts.

Imagine x AKx AQxx AKxxx

Maybe you'd open something other than 1C, but I and many, many other players would open 1C, playing 2/1, expecting to rebid 2D over most responses, including 1H.

Now, obviously that sort of hand is improbable, not least because the opps are silent despite having 10 spades, but there can be many other hands where passing is silly.


To me the next call is very easy: one bids 2H.

2H says nothing at all other than that we have 5 or more hearts. It neither shows nor denies values: it is cheap and convenient. Having to do something else with 5 hearts and values needlessly consumes valuable bidding space, and having to do something else when one has a weak hand is at least as unsound. Bidding space is a concept that is rarely discussed, yet all players who design successful bidding methods are not only aware of the concept but give it a great deal of consideration. Here, there is (as best as I can tell) no significant downside to using 2H as a 'noise', saying nothing beyond 'we have 5+ hearts'.

What one does next depends on what partner does and whether you play what I describe (iirc, I haven't read my own article in years) as a 'strong reverse'.

Btw, the OP wrote as if she saw this responding hand as a very bad hand. I think that most experienced tournament players, at least in NA, stretch to respond to 1C. For example, I would always bid 1H over partner's 1C if I held xxx KJxxx xxx xx. Actually, I'd bid on less than that: I have responded on a 2 count a few time. xx Qxxxxx xxx xx: it is losing bridge, in my opinion, to pass 1C (now, we have methods, such that we can get out in 3H is he bids 2N, as one example, and he will pass 2H if he rebids 1N and we bid 2H). Once in a while you make your situation worse, but most of the time, you either improve the situation directly or you make it very difficult for the opps. And it isn't as if passing 1C means you are in a great spot

[maartenxq]

What awkward hand. I am minimum but have an easy 2 ♥ rebid. If partner supports we are in game, after 2 ♠ or 3 ♣ I convert to 3 ♦ and see what happens then.

Pass only in a rubber partnering Mrs Guggenheim.

Maarten Baltussen

[FelicityR]

I, too, called 2♥ - reluctantly. This is the whole hand. Given the vulnerability I can understand somewhat East/West not bidding immediately holding the top suit, spades. My partner North was not deterred by my 2♥ call. As I say, he "came to the wrong conclusion" and it's perhaps easier to judge seeing all four hands, but how do you think the auction should proceed after 2♥.

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[Tramticket]

FelicityR, on 2019-May-31, 05:41, said:

how do you think the auction should proceed after 2♥.

I think that 3♦ showing the 6-5 shape, but requiring preference at the four level, is too much. Partner has not shown any interest in the minors

An invitational raise to 3♥ can't promise more than HX and looks right to me. Yes it will lead to an ugly result on this hand.

[msjennifer]

Sirs,My bid now is 3C.1)Opener has shown a minor two suited hand AND that too with a reversing strength 2).He has not opened the bidding 2C so he does expect some help in the minors and at the same time 3) he does not want/expect WASTED honours outside.He has shown 4) that even with a minimumm response with 5/6 HCP he is prepared to play in 3C.Now I do not wish to rebid 2H with such a poor 5 card suit.NO.IT CERTAINLY IS NOT AN AUTOMATIC BID.My DKJ10 are a golden possession which I have not revealed at all.Another clarification asking bid from him and we may be shooting for a little slam.I expect a hand with not more than one loser in the majors.My post is coming after the hand has been disclosed but my decision has been based AS IF I HAVE NOT SEEN IT.Thanks N.B.We play the 2c opening as promising 5+ honour tricks an asset which will draw blood if opponents make the mistake of competing beyond our GAME BID. I do not give any value to the fact that opponents are silent.

[pescetom]

FelicityR, on 2019-May-31, 05:41, said:

My partner North was not deterred by my 2♥ call. As I say, he "came to the wrong conclusion" and it's perhaps easier to judge seeing all four hands, but how do you think the auction should proceed after 2♥.

Maybe 3♦ 4♦ 4NT 5♦ pass, assuming 0314 and no Kickback?

[bravejason]

North has a nice hand, but when South could do nothing but make a simple rebid of hearts despite knowing North had a strong two-suiter, maybe North should just pass.

[Winstonm]

Bidding is and always has been imperfect. Imagine if opener had held: x, AKx, Axxx, AKJxx. Now, 2H would help reach the proper game.

2H looks to me to be a pretty normal contract in a quality field.

[Left2Right]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Ingrid Bergman (my pet pronunciation for Ingberman). It's a convention designed to handle just such a situation. Basically, South's second call of 2NT is artificial and says, "Partner dear, I have a hand that won't make game opposite your minimum reverse."

North, holding a minimum reverse, completes the relay to three clubs and it gets played there. Holding a high-end reverse, all other bids are game forcing.

More on Ingberman click here.

And of course (as I always nag), you and partner can practice it at a BBO bidding or teaching table using one of the constraint files I authored for this convention. Click here for that.

[nige1]

FelicityR writes 'My partner and I were playing a basic 2/1 system (15-17 NT) where a rebid of 2NT by opener after a 1M response shows 18-19 balanced. I'm not keen on dragging up a response on rubbish, but I felt that this hand justified a response after partner opened. However, after his next bid I felt stymied. A reverse is forcing, is it not, but I was very tempted to pass. Playing MPs, what do you feel is the best bid here? And would it make any difference at IMPs? And as always thank you for your replies.'
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

After a reverse, there are various possible rebid schemes, for responder (for example, Blackout , where the cheaper of 2N and 4th suit shows weakness).

I prefer Lebensohl., for simplicity and consistency i.e. after partner's 2-level reverse...
-- 2♦/♥/♠ = NAT N/F. For example, here, 2♠ would show a weak misfit like ♠ J x x x x ♥ J x x x x x ♦ x x ♣ x.
-- 2N = PUP to 3♣. Then 3♦ = NAT S/O, 3♥/♠ = NAT INV.
-- 3♣/♦/♥/♠ = F/G.

If Lebensohl is agreed, then I rank
1. 2♥ = N/F.
2. 2N = PUP..

---

[mikeh]

Tramticket, on 2019-May-31, 06:00, said:

I think that 3♦ showing the 6-5 shape, but requiring preference at the four level, is too much. Partner has not shown any interest in the minors

An invitational raise to 3♥ can't promise more than HX and looks right to me. Yes it will lead to an ugly result on this hand.

An invitational raise to 3H does not exist, and absolutely would/should not be made on Ax.

1C 1H 2D 2H 3H is how one bids, for example, x Axx AQxx AKJxx, and is forcing.

The actual opening hand is a clear 3D rebid by opener, which (in my methods) removes the force. 5=6 hands, shown via reverses, have a much lower low end than do 4=5 or 4=6 reverse hands. So the question here, for responder, is whether to bid again with those 3 diamond honours and a ruffing value in clubs. I think it close. At mps, I think pass is a reasonable shot at seeking the precious plus, but at imps I would raise, since game is pretty good opposite x x AQxxx AKxxxx and similar.

5D is an interesting contract, especially on the quite plausible heart lead.