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Transwomen in bridge

#41 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2019-November-08, 11:17

View PostVampyr, on 2019-November-08, 09:03, said:

I am surprised by this; my experience is different to yours.


Mine is different too. Mixed pairs and open competition don't bring up any particular problems here, either as a player or a director. But maybe it's because at club and regional level most competition is open and men and women are equally represented, so playing with and against the other sex is just normal.
I just did a quick count of the regular partnerships and recent results at my club and found that male-male, male-female and female-female each represent one third of total, with the first two being equally represented on the podium and female-female doing less well.
At a social level, the female-female pairs are maybe a bit more likely to squabble with opponents and the male-male pairs to squabble with each other. Male-female are better than either, so long as not married to each other B-)
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#42 User is online   mikeh 

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Posted 2019-November-08, 12:11

I expect that gender issues will be debated for as long as tournament bridge is played, although how long that will be is another issue entirely.

Go back 40+ years and the Bridge World had lots of content on the then-hot topic of male-female stereotypes. One article, that may have extended over more than one issue, posited that Paul Soloway, arguably the best player in the world at that time, and certainly the most prominent tournament pro, woke up one morning as a woman, named Paula. The article explored what the author presumably thought might be the reaction of Paul's peers and clients. It was both funny and sad, since I remember thinking that the author was probably largely correct. 'Paula' was treated with condescension and found clients and other pros begging off playing with 'her', even though the basis of the story was that 'her' bridge playing skills were as great as ever.

Then there was the old 'nature v nuture' debate about whether the factual reality that most of the best players (by titles, mps, etc) were male was caused by genetics or cultural conditioning.

By contrast, even as little as a decade or so earlier, the gender stories in the BW were all chauvinistic, with the female players portrayed as very lucky: the 'funny' stories were all about some hapless female, sometimes even the wife of the editor, Moyse, stumbling into good results. Not only that, but in the ACBL bulletins and the BW, successful women players were often identified as 'Mrs. Frank Williams' or 'Mr. Thomas Smith', etc, as if their only role in life was to be, as my wife calls it, 'she of he'.

Now we add in the cultural awareness of trans-identification on top of the unresolved gender questions between cis-male and cis-female, and we have a ready made controversy. However, note that the old stereotypes underlie this tempest in a teapot. If we did not at least partially buy into this 'males are inherently superior to females at bridge' notion, who would care about the 'distorting' effect of a genetic male identifying as and playing as a female?

I lack the expertise to have an meaningful opinion as to whether there is any real genetic difference. What little I know of neuroscience suggests that the data is debatable at best. Meanwhile, it is pretty much impossible to live in a western society such as Canada, or to be exposed to mostly US entertainment, and not recognize that gender conditioning is omnipresent.

Things change, but slowly. In our firm we finally hired a male legal assistant. A comparable firm to ours, which was founded more than 100 years ago, finally had their first ever female lawyer last year! I still find it odd the very rare time when I phone another lawfirm and find the telephone answered by a male receptionist: I appreciate that says as much about me as it does about the culture.

I hope, but doubt, that bridge will still be relatively popular 50 years from now, and that culturally we continue on our current path (but have my doubts about that as well). It would be interesting to see then how relatively successful women, whether cis or trans, are, and maybe then the old debates, usually fueled by stereotypes and prejudice, have played out. However, I won't be around to find out.
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
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#43 User is offline   PhilG007 

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Posted 2019-November-08, 14:34

View PostCyberyeti, on 2019-November-06, 07:41, said:

I'm involved in a discussion on a cricket FB group about this and it occurred to me that I didn't know how bridge handled it.

So I and a group of friends who are decent county players but not international stars in the mens game decide to start identifying as female and turning up at womens events.

Is there a policy on this at world level ? and have various ROs considered it ?

Cricket in the UK allows anybody who identifies as female to play domestically but there are testosterone tests in the international game. I guess that will last until a 6 foot 9 extremely fast bowler turns up in the domestic game.


What gender you are is defined by your birth certificate. Even if you change your name by deed poll or undergo transexual surgery or take gender transforming drugs,
in the eyes of the law,you are what you were registered at birth as. Your birth certificate cannot be changed or altered and it is a criminal offence to do so.
"It is not enough to be a good player, you must also play well"
- Dr Tarrasch(1862-1934)German Chess Grandmaster

Bridge is a game where you have two opponents...and often three(!)


"Any palooka can take tricks with Aces and Kings; the true expert shows his prowess
by how he handles the two's and three's" - Mollo's Hideous Hog
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#44 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2019-November-08, 14:59

View Postpescetom, on 2019-November-08, 11:01, said:

Thanks.
Could you tell us more about how this all works out in chess, an individual mind game? Is it accepted that men have an advantage and if so, is there any kind of evidence? Do they have absolute / mixed / mens events as well as womens?

Ummm... Did you read my post? Anyway, here it is about chess:

Women are underrepresented in high-level bridge chess. Having an extra event for them can incentivise them taking up high-level bridge chess, which ultimately makes the field larger and the sport stronger.

None of that is contingent on men having an advantage, just about a difference in interest/participation. And there are open and women's events. I'm sure there are some mixed events somewhere (there are team tournaments and leagues with 4-8 players per team), but they are not common.
... and I can prove it with my usual, flawless logic.
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#45 User is online   mikeh 

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Posted 2019-November-08, 15:12

View PostPhilG007, on 2019-November-08, 14:34, said:

What gender you are is defined by your birth certificate. Even if you change your name by deed poll or undergo transexual surgery or take gender transforming drugs,
in the eyes of the law,you are what you were registered at birth as. Your birth certificate cannot be changed or altered and it is a criminal offence to do so.

You might want to be careful making generalized statements like that. Your assertion is definitely not true in all jurisdictions. Well, I accept that it may well be widely illegal to make unauthorized changes to a legal document such as a birth certificate, but that is hardly the same as your general proposition, which I can assure you is false in at least some parts of the world.
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
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#46 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2019-November-08, 16:33

View PostPhilG007, on 2019-November-08, 14:34, said:

What gender you are is defined by your birth certificate. Even if you change your name by deed poll or undergo transexual surgery or take gender transforming drugs,
in the eyes of the law,you are what you were registered at birth as. Your birth certificate cannot be changed or altered and it is a criminal offence to do so.


What a remarkably ignorant statement...

Based on you sig, it looks like you're a resident of the United Kingdom, so let's do a quick google search wrt to the transgender rights in the UK

Well, let's see. It looks as if the UK passed something called "The Gender Recognition Act of 2004"
And, as part of this law, it permits people to get a birth certificate showing their recognized legal sex.

So, thanks for playing
Better luck next time!
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#47 User is offline   jmuncie 

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Posted 2019-November-08, 16:48

I guess this may seem silly but what does gender have to do with BBO bridge?
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#48 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2019-November-08, 17:27

View Postpescetom, on 2019-November-08, 11:17, said:

I just did a quick count of the regular partnerships and recent results at my club and found that male-male, male-female and female-female each represent one third of total, with the first two being equally represented on the podium and female-female doing less well.

1/3 actually shows that the distribution is not random. If there were no bias (in the data, not personally - the bias could come from a number of sources), it should be 25% MM, 50% MF/FM, 25% FF.

A 33-33-33 distribution could be (for example) due to about 1/3 of men and 1/3 of women only choosing partners of their own gender and the rest choosing randomly.

I am just posting this in reply as a curiosity - no particular point to make.
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#49 User is offline   gordontd 

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Posted 2019-November-09, 01:15

View PostPhilG007, on 2019-November-08, 14:34, said:

What gender you are is defined by your birth certificate. Even if you change your name by deed poll or undergo transexual surgery or take gender transforming drugs,
in the eyes of the law,you are what you were registered at birth as. Your birth certificate cannot be changed or altered and it is a criminal offence to do so.


It seems that your incorrect assertions are not limited to the subject of bridge.
Gordon Rainsford
London UK
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#50 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2019-November-09, 13:37

View PostPhilG007, on 2019-November-08, 14:34, said:

What gender you are is defined by your birth certificate. Even if you change your name by deed poll or undergo transexual surgery or take gender transforming drugs,
in the eyes of the law,you are what you were registered at birth as. Your birth certificate cannot be changed or altered and it is a criminal offence to do so.

Quite aside from the issue of gender reassignment, there are many documented cases of hospitals registering an incorrect gender on birth certificates. Your assertion would deny those people the opportunity to have that corrected. It is also completely ignorant and thoughtless.
(-: Zel :-)
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#51 User is offline   mikestar13 

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Posted 2019-November-09, 17:35

View Posthrothgar, on 2019-November-08, 05:14, said:

I think that the framing of Cyberyeti's questions strongly implies that this is not th case

(Initially) there was no discussion about how players or members of the team identified.

Rather, Cyberyeti framed this as "Here's a group of players that aren't good enough to win Open evens who are now considering entering Women's events instead"
Perhaps this is simply poorly worded, but this strikes me as off

A much less loaded way to frame this question would have been

"Should a woman who transitioned from male to female now be allowed to compete in women's events?"


I was referring to the actual UK player Cyberyeti cites, not to his hypothetical team of men dressing as women.

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#52 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2019-November-09, 20:33

View PostCyberyeti, on 2019-November-06, 14:09, said:

No I was not mocking it, in the UK we have one good but not quite absolutely top flight male player to whom this could apply. I don't know how he identifies, but he has turned up at tournaments in dresses with painted nails and make up for years.

I was suggesting that if we identified as female this was a real documented thing (and it's not going to happen), not that I turned up in a beard and a dress.


A couple of years ago at a European tournament she was on our team and we were not permitted to play in the mixed teams because the rules there require two mixed pairs, rather than at least one man and at least one woman on each team. The player in question did not contest the point, but I believe that she does identify as female.
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#53 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2019-November-10, 03:34

View Postgwnn, on 2019-November-08, 17:27, said:

1/3 actually shows that the distribution is not random. If there were no bias (in the data, not personally - the bias could come from a number of sources), it should be 25% MM, 50% MF/FM, 25% FF.

A 33-33-33 distribution could be (for example) due to about 1/3 of men and 1/3 of women only choosing partners of their own gender and the rest choosing randomly.


For whatever reason, it shows that people are twice as likely to be in a same gender pair than to be in a mixed pair, so far from random I agree.
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