[nekthen]

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12-14 NT round to you. Normal agreement is dbl is about 11-14.

[Tramticket]

nekthen, on 2020-March-10, 17:16, said:

Normal agreement is dbl is about 11-14.

This is not normal for us!

[Cyberyeti]

So this is a "we've screwed ourselves by not playing what everybody else plays, now make the best of it". I'll get a new partner thanks that plays a sensible double

[hrothgar]

Abstain

Seriously, how can you expect a sensible answer when we don't understand your methods?

[nekthen]

hrothgar, on 2020-March-10, 18:41, said:

Abstain

Seriously, how can you expect a sensible answer when we don't understand your methods?

I want to know what you would do?
If you double does your partner expect around 18 hcp or 11-14?
If you have the agreement 11-14, what do you do with a much bigger hand?
Our methods are 11-14 to double in 4th seat and multi landy. My partner felt unable to bid and I sympathize.
I think that we need a different set of agreements for action in 4th seat and am seeking advice from the forum

[johnu]

nekthen, on 2020-March-10, 18:50, said:

I want to know what you would do?
If you double does your partner expect around 18 hcp or 11-14?
If you have the agreement 11-14, what do you do with a much bigger hand?
Our methods are 11-14 to double in 4th seat and multi landy. My partner felt unable to bid and I sympathize.
I think that we need a different set of agreements for action in 4th seat and am seeking advice from the forum

What would you do in immediate position over 1NT?

[helene_t]

Dbl of course. I can raise any non-spade suit. If partner bids 2♠ we will play that.

[mcphee]

Players do not place a range on a double be it take dout or penalty

[nekthen]

mcphee, on 2020-March-11, 00:42, said:

Players do not place a range on a double be it take out or penalty

You need some definition, otherwise how does partner know whether to bid or pass? This is still basically a double for penalties.
In the 2nd seat you would expect the range to be 15-18. If you double with less partner may stand the double when 1N makes, if you double with more partner may run when the contract is down.
In this situation suppose East has 5 points, if he thinks partner has reopened the bidding with 11-14 he may pull the double, if he expects 15-18, he will stick

[FelicityR]

To be honest, I've never come across a balancing 1NT double of 11-14 HCPs. How has this come about? Whilst it is acceptable to make the limitation of a 11-14 HCPs 1NT bid in 4th seat after a 1st seat opener and two passes, this is only make after a suit opening.

Doubling a 1NT opener with a similar point count as the opener just seems asking for trouble.

[Trinidad]

FelicityR, on 2020-March-11, 03:04, said:

To be honest, I've never come across a balancing 1NT double of 11-14 HCPs. How has this come about? Whilst it is acceptable to make the limitation of a 11-14 HCPs 1NT bid in 4th seat after a 1st seat opener and two passes, this is only make after a suit opening.

Doubling a 1NT opener with a similar point count as the opener just seems asking for trouble.

Doubling a weak 1NT opener with a similar point count as opener is indeed asking for trouble... if the double is in direct seat. I typically play that in direct seat, a bid shows about an opening hand and double shows a strong 1NT opening (15-17) or something really strong.
However, in the balancing seat things change a little bit and the requirements for a double are somewhat loser. We need to protect what we could be making (when partner in second seat has something). There are still risks involved in getting in, since the opponents could have the majority of the points, but at least you know that they will not have the rest of the deck (responder wouldn't have passed), whereas your partner might have that rest of the deck.

Just last week, we had the following deal:

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Note that East, in direct seat, passed, whereas West in the balancing seat doubled with essentially the same kind of hand as East had. This deal led to a disaster for NS, since they didn't really master their runout system, so the result was -1600 (at cross-IMP scoring: 15.2 XIMPs). But EW are always entitled to 800.

If the opponents wouldn't open a weak 1NT, we are entitled to make a game in spades, scoring 420, or NT (400 or 430). That is what happened at the other tables, except for one. We should try to get that result also when they open 1NT. If we simply pass it out with 11-14 points, we would have scored something like 200 or at best 250. That is not enough. If we double in 4th seat with about 12-14 then it is possible to arrest the opponents (to get 800) or find our own contract (on somewhat more distributional hands). If we end up playing at the two level, we will usually be OK (but, admittedly, sometimes not).

So, what happened at the last table? North opened 1NT and EW ended up playing 2NT... when EW weren't sure what point range they had. This illustrates that it is important to have good agreements about this. The funny thing is that there EW were experienced players who have been playing together, at this club, for about 20 years. But they are simply not that interested in discussing the bidding. At the table where NS went for 1600, I was East playing with an experienced player whom I had played with only once. We had a 10 minute discussion about system. Against weak 1NT, we agreed to play: "All natural. Double in direct seat is a 1NT opening (or any stronger hand)". It seems like we both implicitly understood that this meant that we could be somewhat weaker in the balancing seat.

Rik

[helene_t]

Some British players (who have amble experience with defending the weak NT) say that a balancing seat double should have a higher lower range than a direct-seat double. I think the reasoning is that a balancing seat double has he disadvantage of being under declarer, and that partner may lead away from a broken suit in which you have a weak doubleton or even a singleton.

Maybe this is more an IMPs consideration than an MP consideration. It is also possible that it is simply misguided.

I know the following is an unpopular opinion, but .... I think that against a 1st/2nd seat 12-14 1NT opening it is better to play your normal strong notrump defense with an artificial double. With the penalty double you occasionally reach game opposite a partner who would have passed an overcall, and you occasionally set opps for a phone number, or +200 at matchpoints. But more often your part score bidding suffers from not having an artificial double, or you help opps scramble out of 1NT by doubling them.

[eagles123]

of all the idiotic methods brought up in one form or another on BBF, double here showing 11-14 must be up there with one of the worst lol

[AL78]

Trinidad, on 2020-March-11, 13:47, said:

Doubling a weak 1NT opener with a similar point count as opener is indeed asking for trouble... if the double is in direct seat. I typically play that in direct seat, a bid shows about an opening hand and double shows a strong 1NT opening (15-17) or something really strong.
However, in the balancing seat things change a little bit and the requirements for a double are somewhat loser. We need to protect what we could be making (when partner in second seat has something). There are still risks involved in getting in, since the opponents could have the majority of the points, but at least you know that they will not have the rest of the deck (responder wouldn't have passed), whereas your partner might have that rest of the deck.

Just last week, we had the following deal:

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And when the director called the move, you were still playing the first board. :-)

[Trinidad]

AL78, on 2020-March-13, 07:45, said:

And when the director called the move, you were still playing the first board. :-)

This was actually board 17, the second board of our first round. With 3 boards a round, we started at 16.

And after the third board, partner and I had plenty of time to gloat after the opponents had left the room in disgust...

Rik

[nekthen]

johnu, on 2020-March-10, 19:02, said:

What would you do in immediate position over 1NT?

Normal 15-18 We would double

[nullve]

eagles123, on 2020-March-12, 12:47, said:

of all the idiotic methods brought up in one form or another on BBF, double here showing 11-14 must be up there with one of the worst lol

I think

(1N)-P-(P)-P: now also on some strong (18+?) balanced hand types
(1N)-P-(P)-X: standard, but now excluding some strong (18+) balanced hand types,

might have merit if partner is supposed to pull a standard double even on weak balanced hands.

The point is that if Doubler is so strong that he expects partner will pull too often when it would be better to defend 1NX, it might be better to pass and avoid a silly partial after, say,

(1N)-P-(P)-X
(P)-2♣*.

* nebulous