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Disaster strikes exert/advanced partnership

#1 User is offline   mcphee 

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Posted 2005-June-02, 08:16



Here we have a hand that took place in a team match with a BBO "expert" and advanced player partnership. E/W were silent. North began
1H 1S
3C 3S
4D 5C
5N all pass result +660 for a loss of 17 imps.

My thoughts of the bidding were that 3C was a stretch as this is not exactly what I would consider a hand to j/s. 4D was a cue bid for S of course but now clearly a massive overbid considering we have already j/s and for my money 4S would have been adequate at this point. No matter what 5N was supposed to be S simply must not pass.

The opening lead was made and the first swing was from N landing a blow to the lower body, followed with a uppercut, and I think even a kick! S regained footing and delivered a solid blow or so himself but neither player was anxious to admit fault. The reached for pistols and one player was wonded, not seriously we hope.

Lets hear what your thoughts are where and what made this accident take place. If you would also suggest a torture for the guilty party that wouold be appreciated.

Thanks
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#2 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2005-June-02, 08:20

what is 3???? :) There he totally wastes it imo. Just bid 3...
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#3 User is offline   Echognome 

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Posted 2005-June-02, 08:31

North may have overbid slightly, but it looked as if North was begging for South to take control of this auction. Surely after the 4 bid, south should take control and ask for keycard.

Regardless, after the 5 cuebid, I am not sure why North then made a GSF bid of 5NT and then why South passed the forcing bid? Sounds like a lot of confusion going on by both sides.
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#4 User is offline   luke warm 

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Posted 2005-June-02, 08:39

i think it can be difficult to bid in standard after 1H/1S/3H ... given the actual bidding, i think north is at fault... 1H/1S/3C/3S and now 4S seems obvious.. south can then go on, which he should given north's bidding and his own controls
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#5 User is offline   slothy 

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Posted 2005-June-02, 09:00

Christ Mac :)) and these philistines accuse me of getting carried away with metaphor and prosaic lingo :))

Anyway back to biznezz....

I actually quite like the 3 bid especially in the context of being followed up with the 4 bid...

when S can see both Aces in his hand in the suits that N cue bid S MUST know that N is aflush with the top spades..... there is no other explanation for his/her strong bidding on this auction with pin-pointed.

i wouldnt say he was necessarily the shape he was but definitely telling his P that he can sniff a slam with the right cards opposite...

AND that is exactly what S has after the minor suit cues..

The 5NT is obviosly a Grand Slam Inquiry. With the cards he has there is no other bid i can see other than 7
gaudium est miseris socios habuisse penarum - Misery loves company.
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#6 User is offline   PriorKnowledge 

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Posted 2005-June-02, 09:07

3C An overbid, but not by much. 3H is more in line with holding
4D Q-bid showing 3-card spade support. Maybe a simple 4S bid was better. Although opener has all side suits covered, responder may be weak so opener cannot launch into RKC yet.
5C NO. No more q-bids. Time for keycard since you have all suits covered and really need to know about opener's spade honors.
5N Not sure... Why not just 5H?

Passing 5N is a terrible, terrible error. Maybe both players were a little lost in the auction, but you can't pass 5N just because you are confused. Just bid 6S.
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#7 Guest_Jlall_*

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Posted 2005-June-02, 09:15

3C is fine, although I prefer 2C with such weak hearts. Surely those suggesting 3H are joking? I don't understand that bid, if you wnat to bid 3M at least bid 3S?

3S is fine

4D is fine. I don't think it's a "huge overbid" as other people have called it. North has THREE trumps. He could easily be 2524 and would bid 4S now. The third trump and stiff diamond are huge, so is the A sixth of hearts now as it seems pard is likely to have a stiff (no "default" 3H).

5C-??? this is the time for keycard. This is easily the worst bid of the auction.

5N-???????? No clue, since i gave this the most ? marks maybe its the worst bid, but 5C hurt them more in finding the right contract. This was pick a slam i guess, but north should know that the contract should be in spades.

pass-???????????? worst non-bid of the auction lol. Whatever 5N is pass is wrong.
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#8 User is offline   luke warm 

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Posted 2005-June-02, 09:21

give yourself the south hand... what do you bid after

1h : 1s
3c : 3s
4s

hasn't north done enough with the 3c bid? isn't anything other than 4s showing the same values twice?
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#9 User is offline   HeartA 

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Posted 2005-June-02, 09:44

3C a little strech but OK. After South's 3S, North had to bid 4S to show S support.

After North's 4S, South could RKC with all controls on 3 suits (Aces in minors and stiff H) and extra card in S. Whether or not to go to grand is another issue.
Senshu
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#10 Guest_Jlall_*

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Posted 2005-June-02, 09:45

4S does not show 3 spades, nor does it show the stiff diamond, nor does it show such a slam suitable hand. For instance:

Ax
KQJxx
xx
AKJx

the hand you actually hold is MUCH better. I do not think that because I have a (sub)minimum jumpshift that means I cannot reevaluate my hand later.
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#11 User is offline   HeartA 

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Posted 2005-June-02, 09:47

Justin,
we have different standard. Your hand does not qualify for 3C (and 4S) imo.
Senshu
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#12 User is offline   luis 

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Posted 2005-June-02, 09:49

My Diagsnose: "Acute Expertitis"
After 4 just use RKCB, 5, 5N and the final pass are just too dangerous in a new partnership. Being able to simplify is a good skill.
The legend of the black octogon.
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#13 Guest_Jlall_*

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Posted 2005-June-02, 09:52

Ok make it Ax KQJxx xx AKQx then (I presume this is a JS). I still like the posted hand ALOT more
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#14 User is offline   Walddk 

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Posted 2005-June-02, 10:12

Justin is spot on. 3 is a slight overbid (I wouldn't mind 2), but the North hand surely improved after the 1 response. 4 is also fine; that does not promise extras in the slightest, it merely promises a diamond control for spades.

4 could easily be 2524 with no diamond control. I have a feeling that South interpreted 4 as natural (0544 I suppose), and then the wheels came off. 4 is never natural. That hand would have bid 3NT over 3.

South had a normal 4NT over 4, but was perplexed by the 4 bid. I like North's bidding a lot and must sadly give the lady in the South seat the full blame - as much as I dislike blaming nice ladies ;)

A 3 rebid by opener would have been wrong for two reasons:

1. The hand has much more potential than a mere invite after 1.

2. The suit quality is not good enough for a jump rebid.

Again a question of hand evaluation which no system caters for. In my opinion, the North hand is worth more than the 17 hcp you count. Judgement is what bridge is about! North judged well when he rebid 3, although 2 would have been fine too.

Having said all that, however, I would not have bid 4 facing an inexperienced intermediate/advanced player. I am assuming an expert partnership. With a lesser player/student I would just bid 4. No way that bid can be misinterpreted.

Roland
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#15 User is offline   luke warm 

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Posted 2005-June-02, 10:21

i understand justin's and roland's reasoning (i think)... but consider this... imagine north had a real jumpshift (i mean, imagine the king of hearts added to the hand)... did the 3s bid improve it? yeah, obviously

on the actual hand, 3s also improved north's hand.. but improved it to what? to what the original j/s showed? if so, he's already bid that... i do agree that 4s is ambiguous, though
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#16 User is offline   reisig 

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Posted 2005-June-02, 10:34

Everything has been said..except - why 3 over 3? I like giving opener a chance to explain his jump shift. Over 3 I can bid 3...over 3NT s are out of the question. Who gets blamed? The first error or the last? The punishment should clearly be a firing squad ;)
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#17 User is offline   Walddk 

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Posted 2005-June-02, 10:36

luke warm, on Jun 2 2005, 11:21 AM, said:

i understand justin's and roland's reasoning (i think)... but consider this... imagine north had a real jumpshift (i mean, imagine the king of hearts added to the hand)... did the 3s bid improve it? yeah, obviously

on the actual hand, 3s also improved north's hand.. but improved it to what? to what the original j/s showed? if so, he's already bid that... i do agree that 4s is ambiguous, though

Jimmy, South can ask about all that by starting with 4NT. I am not ashamed of what I have shown so far - not after 4 either.

Roland
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#18 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2005-June-02, 10:36

I agree completely with justin and roland that the suit quality is simply not sufficient for a 3H bid, and either 2C or 3C may work well - my instinct is to upgrade this hand from 5 losers to 4 losers after the spade approach, so I think 3C is my choice - even if we end up in a Moysian the taps are taken in the right hand opposite: Q10xx. I feel the hand is simply too slammish to bid the more practical 2C - hard to catch up from then on.

Once I've said my piece, I don't think I want to confuse the auction with any other bid than 4S. In this sequence, the diamond controls are at least inferred although not bluntly stated. With an adequate hand, partner can cue bid 5C with the Ace and diamond control issues - if partner does not hold the club Ace or diamond Ace, what does it matter?

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#19 User is offline   Walddk 

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Posted 2005-June-02, 10:42

Winstonm, on Jun 2 2005, 11:36 AM, said:

Once I've said my piece, I don't think I want to confuse the auction with any other bid than 4S.  In this sequence, the diamond controls are at least inferred although not bluntly stated.

Your posts are usually excellent Winston, but I think you go wrong here. Over 4 there is no need for South to bid on with no diamond control (a different hand of course). 4 simply denies a diamond control for spades as I and I am sure most experts play it.

A 2524 hand with no diamond control.

AK
AK1054
76
AJ95

so South has no errand with

Q109843
K2
753
AJ

That's a shame opposite the real hand, is it not?

Roland
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#20 Guest_Jlall_*

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Posted 2005-June-02, 10:53

luke warm, on Jun 2 2005, 11:21 AM, said:

i understand justin's and roland's reasoning (i think)... but consider this... imagine north had a real jumpshift (i mean, imagine the king of hearts added to the hand)... did the 3s bid improve it? yeah, obviously

on the actual hand, 3s also improved north's hand.. but improved it to what? to what the original j/s showed? if so, he's already bid that... i do agree that 4s is ambiguous, though

If north has AKJ AKTxxx x KQx he can drive to the 5 level after a 3S bid surely. Again his hand has improved alot, he would have opened 2C had you told him his pard had spades. As such, he can now drive to the 5 level.
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