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how to bid

#1 User is offline   cencio 

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Posted 2021-January-06, 05:31


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#2 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-January-06, 06:07

We would bid (Acol, 2neg no immediate 2 2nd neg, Kokish) I would treat this hand that is all tops as 28 rather than 27

2-2
2(bal or hearts)-2(semi forced)
3N(28-29)-4(transfer)
4N(4 spades)-5(cue)
5N(anything else)-6(no)

Might possibly be in 6N at pairs.
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#3 User is offline   LBengtsson 

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Posted 2021-January-06, 08:02

Novice/Beginner bids? 2 -2 - 4NT (28/29 bal.) - 6NT not good but practicable.
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#4 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2021-January-06, 12:05

I'm ACBL, not Acol, but my Kokish auction would be like Cyberyeti's (but I don't have the 4 gadget, so mine will go 4-4; 5NT "pick a slam"-6). Same caveat applies to 6NT at pairs.

Without that gadget, I'm either playing 2 GF, and so after 2-2; 2NT-3; 3-4; some call to show I'm much bigger than 22-6. Or I'm playing cheapest 3, and after 3 I have to do the "something unusual" here and not bid 3 (that partner might pass with a 5 spade yarborough). I assume partner will get it.

It's a really old-fashioned strategy (because either it's "easier" to play 2NT as invitational, or unwrapping the strong bids can be difficult enough), but 2NT "min GF or Very Strong, and you'll know when I override your signoff") does still work, usually with 1m-2NT.
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#5 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2021-January-06, 12:34

View PostLBengtsson, on 2021-January-06, 08:02, said:

Novice/Beginner bids? 2 -2 - 4NT (28/29 bal.) - 6NT not good but practicable.

That is what this forum is about, and I agree with your proposal.


But FWIW, my own I/A bid would be quite similar to Cyberyeti:

2-2
2(bal or hearts)-2(forced)
3N(28-29)-4(transfer )
5(control, odd keycards)-5(control)
6(control,Q)-6(nothing more)
p
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#6 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-January-06, 13:05

View Postmycroft, on 2021-January-06, 12:05, said:

I'm ACBL, not Acol, but my Kokish auction would be like Cyberyeti's (but I don't have the 4 gadget, so mine will go 4-4; 5NT "pick a slam"-6). Same caveat applies to 6NT at pairs.


I should probably expand why we have that bid, we break with 3 good trumps and a good 5 card suit to the 5 card suit leaving 4N for the 4 card support hands. This has the advantage that in this auction when partner bids 5 over 4N he can then cue Qs over 5N as he's already denied the minor suit Ks. If partner shows Q (he can't be 5422 or would have bid differently) I think the odds favour the grand whatever his actual shape, Q is trickier as it might be doubleton and useless, ditto Q where it's bad opposite a doubleton diamond.
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#7 User is offline   morecharac 

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Posted 2021-January-06, 20:19

View Postcencio, on 2021-January-06, 05:31, said:



Judging by some of the other answers I have a better memory of what it was like to be a beginner bidder.

All the control bids and post-rebid transfers and such are helpful but to a beginner they're just another thing they'll probably forget when the time comes. It's easy to forget that all those bricks that went into building a more advanced bidding system look like a solid wall to a beginner. Learning how to handle the 1 in ten thousand hands is too much when still trying to learn the 1 in a hundred.

Using Standard American and looking only at the North cards:

2 - I know some books say 4NT but I think this is a horrible idea for beginners. How are they going to find room for the proper contract? I didn't learn the 4NT idea until after I knew enough to avoid using it.

Rebid depends on partner's response and playing level. I wouldn't expect a beginner to use the double negative, so I would expect second negative to be their way to indicate a bust hand. Opposite a partner who does know double negative the auction gets a lot easier because I'll know in one bid whether I should be looking for anything beyone 3NT.

For a beginner, I'll assume second negative in use:
2-2-2-3(bust)-3NT

For a novice, I'll assume they've learnt double negative 2 (0-2 HCP):
2-2-3NT

If my partner doesn't have a strong enough hand to respond in their own suit, 2 followed by either 6 or 6NT.

When I was a beginner, I'd still have ended up in either 6 or 6NT but there'd have been at least one Blackwood bid along the way. As a novice I'd probably skip over Blackwood entirely because it couldn't give me any useful information.

If partner had enough to name their own suit, I'd still have stopped at the six level as a beginner because I hadn't been taught what's required to look for a grand.

As a novice, with 2 still being natural, 2-2-4N (RKC 3014)* and 6 or 7 depending on keycards.

* Yes, we're still using 3014. It makes it easier to stop when intuition says 6m is worth investigating.

Edit: With our current methods and that hand, I'd expect 2-2-2-4-4NT-5-5NT-6/6-7 or ...5-6 depending on how manic I am.
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#8 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-January-07, 04:28

Quote

2 - I know some books say 4NT but I think this is a horrible idea for beginners. How are they going to find room for the proper contract? I didn't learn the 4NT idea until after I knew enough to avoid using it.


4N opener to most here is specific ace ask not a balanced hand.

Very few nowadays rebid 4 card suits after 2 although it used to be common.
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#9 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2021-January-07, 04:42

Thinking about it, even 2♧ 4nt is overkill for novice beginners. They are probably going to be intermediate before they have faced a 28 point hand twice. Just use 2♧ 3nt for anything over 26 and discuss methods over 3nt instead.
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#10 User is offline   morecharac 

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Posted 2021-January-07, 11:44

View PostCyberyeti, on 2021-January-07, 04:28, said:

4N opener to most here is specific ace ask not a balanced hand.

Very few nowadays rebid 4 card suits after 2 although it used to be common.

First off, this is Novice and Beginner, not Intermediate or higher. Expect some substandard practices to still be taught to beginners.

Some of my stuff disappeared in editing. The hazards of writing after a bridge session where everything falls apart. (Ever have partner pass a Cappelletti 2 against a player you absolutely loathe?)

Some books (Audrey Grant comes to mind, maybe SAYC) say to open a balanced 27-28 HCP at 4NT. This is what I referred to and it's what I was referring to.

I wouldn't normally rebid 2 on a four-card suit but this is the only way with simple bidding to find out where we belong, or NT, with an eye toward 6. The least bad lie.
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#11 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-January-07, 14:55

View Postmorecharac, on 2021-January-07, 11:44, said:

First off, this is Novice and Beginner, not Intermediate or higher. Expect some substandard practices to still be taught to beginners.

Some of my stuff disappeared in editing. The hazards of writing after a bridge session where everything falls apart. (Ever have partner pass a Cappelletti 2 against a player you absolutely loathe?)

Some books (Audrey Grant comes to mind, maybe SAYC) say to open a balanced 27-28 HCP at 4NT. This is what I referred to and it's what I was referring to.

I wouldn't normally rebid 2 on a four-card suit but this is the only way with simple bidding to find out where we belong, or NT, with an eye toward 6. The least bad lie.


I was thinking back nearly 50 years to when I was a beginner, the 4N opener was never blackwood here, and while very old style acol might rebid 2 it was normal to rebid NT and play stayman over however many NT you bid.
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#12 User is offline   morecharac 

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Posted 2021-January-07, 16:47

View PostCyberyeti, on 2021-January-07, 14:55, said:

I was thinking back nearly 50 years to when I was a beginner, the 4N opener was never blackwood here, and while very old style acol might rebid 2 it was normal to rebid NT and play stayman over however many NT you bid.

Nearly as long as I've been alive.

I'm a Canuck (just realised I forgot to fill out my forum profile) and was taught Standard American a bit over ten years ago.

2-2-2NT would show a balanced 22-23ish under SA and partner is allowed to pass with a bust when playing second negative.

We recently switched to double negative and I think I'll see what partner thinks of 2-2-2NT showing a strong balanced hand with systems on now that there's no fear of her passing.

Thanks for the inspiration.
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#13 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-January-07, 17:01

View Postmorecharac, on 2021-January-07, 16:47, said:

Nearly as long as I've been alive.

I'm a Canuck (just realised I forgot to fill out my forum profile) and was taught Standard American a bit over ten years ago.

2-2-2NT would show a balanced 22-23ish under SA and partner is allowed to pass with a bust when playing second negative.

We recently switched to double negative and I think I'll see what partner thinks of 2-2-2NT showing a strong balanced hand with systems on now that there's no fear of her passing.

Thanks for the inspiration.


I think old style had a 20-22 2N opener so 2/2N was 23-24 or for some 23-25 and 2/3N would be slightly wider range but really big then, since people appreciated the value of 2 point ranges more people play Kokish, but not sure if it's taught to N/B now.

I started learning bridge at 8 from my grandfather so 50 years ago is also nearly as long as I've been alive.

It's not sensible to play 2/2N as forcing but you could opt to play 2N via Kokish as forcing and some do that.
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#14 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2021-January-08, 20:54

When I learned Standard American in the 1960s, 2NT opening showed 21-23. 1x-1y-2NT showed 19-20, and opening 1NT showed 16-18. When I learned Romex in the 1990s, the opening NT ladder looked like this:

12-16 HCP: open 1m and rebid 1NT. There are ways to sort out whether its 12-14 or 15-16.
17-18 HCP: open 1m and rebid 2NT.
19-20 HCP: open 1NT (artificial, forcing) and rebid 2NT.
21-22 HCP: open 2!D and rebid 2NT.
23-24 HCP: open 2!C and rebid 2NT.
25-26 HCP: open 2NT (natural, forcing)
27-28 HCP: open 2!D and rebid 3NT.
29-30 HCP: open 2!C and rebid 3NT.

Starting with the 19-20 HCP hand, there are also Neapolitan (A=2, K=1) control requirements for each bid, starting with 6 at 19-20 HCP, and increasing by one as you go up each step. If you are at the lower level for a step and don't have enough controls, you downgrade by one step.

In the 1980s and 1990s bridge theorists opined that when you bid 2NT to show a balanced hand, it should have no more than a two point range. That opinion seems to have gone the way of the dodo these days.
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#15 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2021-January-09, 04:43

View Postblackshoe, on 2021-January-08, 20:54, said:



In the 1980s and 1990s bridge theorists opined that when you bid 2NT to show a balanced hand, it should have no more than a two point range. That opinion seems to have gone the way of the dodo these days.

Quite the contrary, I think. It's just that 2nt 20-21 and 2♧-2nt 22-23 plus some use of 3nt already handle the bulk of strong balanced hands and for more ambitious bidders Kokish allows a long set of 2 point ranges with less system impact than Romex or Multi-based schemes.
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#16 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2021-January-11, 13:31

I see a lot of 2/1 players and writers with 2!C-2!D-2NT showing 22-24 balanced and 3NT showing 25-27 balanced.
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#17 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2021-January-11, 13:59

View Postblackshoe, on 2021-January-11, 13:31, said:

I see a lot of 2/1 players and writers with 2!C-2!D-2NT showing 22-24 balanced and 3NT showing 25-27 balanced.


That's one lazy choice. It costs nothing more to play 2-2-2NT showing 22-23, 3NT showing 24-25 and 2-2-3NT showing 26-27, for instance.
Those of us who lose sleep over what to do with 28+ (probability 1-0.999990) deserve Kokish.
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#18 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2021-January-11, 15:06

I liked the beginning of morecharac's first post, explaining why providing answers based on methods no beginner would ever play is unproductive.

I don't, however, agree with his (her?) suggested approach. For one (big!) thing, opening 2C and rebidding 2S is weird. A serious problem is how to get out of spades when partner has xxx in spades....

I do play Kokish, but would not expect a beginner or novice to do so.

As for 4N, I haven't read Audrey Grant's books (though I know, like and respect her) so can't argue with the suggestion that she advocates 4N for hands such as these. To me, and this dates back to when I was just getting to the novice stage, an opening 4N asked for specific Aces...it was NOT 'blackwood' nor a huge balanced hand..

So if I were playing a mentorship game with a novice or beginner, and held the North hand, I'd open 2C.

I expect partner to bid 2D: I hope he/she knows not to bid 2S, but I wouldn't be surprised to find that some beginners think that best. What I'd do over 2S is unclear, but I generally do not hog the hands when playing with a weaker player....that's no fun for anyone, let alone partner. If partner screws up a hand, hopefully it is a learning experience. I'd just bid 6S....and hope it makes.

If partner did bid 2D, then it depends what we have agreed. Even with a novice, if he or she is interested, I will have discussed very few conventions but one I do like is 2H denying an ace or a King, and 2D (showing an ace or king) as creating a game force. If but only if we have that agreement, I would rebid 2N, rather than 3 or 4N.

This allows partner to stayman or transfer. If partner raised to 3N, I'd bid 4N to show a hand that is stronger than he expects.

However, most beginners or novices won't be playing 2H immediate negative, so one cannot risk 2N as a rebid, since partner will pass with hands where 3N is cold.

Since 3N shows 24-25, I can't bid 3N either: I would bid 4N and hope partner knew what it meant, while fearing that some beginners would think it was blackwood:(

Over 4N, if partner transferred, I'd bid 6S rather than risking a pass of 5S. 6S will often have play opposite zero hcp and 5 small spades!

Getting back to where we came in, I'd not be happy picking up this hand with a novice or beginner partner, since (as morecharac notes) these hands almost never come up. I can't claim to remember every big hand I've held since I started playing in 1972 (or so) but I doubt I've held more than half a dozen balanced 27+ hands in all that time. And so I am willing to bet that very few B/N players have seen one outside, maybe, a book. So I'd be nervous but think that, no matter the outcome, this is a useful learning hand for partner.
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#19 User is offline   morecharac 

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Posted 2021-January-11, 23:49

View Postmikeh, on 2021-January-11, 15:06, said:

I don't, however, agree with his (her?) suggested approach. For one (big!) thing, opening 2C and rebidding 2S is weird. A serious problem is how to get out of spades when partner has xxx in spades....

So if I were playing a mentorship game with a novice or beginner, and held the North hand, I'd open 2C.

I expect partner to bid 2D: I hope he/she knows not to bid 2S, but I wouldn't be surprised to find that some beginners think that best. What I'd do over 2S is unclear, but I generally do not hog the hands when playing with a weaker player....that's no fun for anyone, let alone partner. If partner screws up a hand, hopefully it is a learning experience. I'd just bid 6S....and hope it makes.


Very his. This much hair migration doesn't happen to hers.

I have an instinct for slams, so if I had this hand that would be my target and partner would get dragged along.

If I were playing with a beginner or novice and they were the one with that hand I'd expect us to end up in 3N, hopefully with them playing it.

Quote

Getting back to where we came in, I'd not be happy picking up this hand with a novice or beginner partner, since (as morecharac notes) these hands almost never come up. I can't claim to remember every big hand I've held since I started playing in 1972 (or so) but I doubt I've held more than half a dozen balanced 27+ hands in all that time. And so I am willing to bet that very few B/N players have seen one outside, maybe, a book. So I'd be nervous but think that, no matter the outcome, this is a useful learning hand for partner.

As a novice playing with a beginner with no card or bidding sense, I twice in the same session drew a 27 HCP hand in overcall position. Both times he passed because of the weakness of his own hand.

A very nice guy but one of those who never get past the beginner level, despite playing for five years before his death.
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#20 User is offline   thepossum 

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Posted 2021-January-16, 00:11

I'm a more beginner type person and I thought 2C-2D-2NT-3NT-4NT?? etc

Tested in Q-Plus 2/1 2C-2D-2S-4S-4NT-5C-6S
Acol 2C-2D-2S-3S-4NT-5C-6S
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