[DavidKok]

jillybean, on 2021-April-21, 12:52, said:

Update; A couple of the newer players here who "needed to learn the basic ACOL system" are now rocking it and achieving 60% games. Regardless of the results, there is still push back from players who think 2/1 is complicated with "no benefit".

Of course it's not 2/1 per se, it's the basic concepts of games tries, opener's rebids, cue bidding, co-operative bidding that has improved their game, and is surely transferable to any system.

That's wonderful to hear! I personally think at least some amount of cooperative bidding skills are not as transferable as they seem, since in a 2/1 auction there is simply more room for this kind of bid than in ACOL. If I'm not mistaken this is one reason of many why Larry Cohen recommends 2/1, it forces these general skills on new players as they form a big part of the system.

[jillybean]

DavidKok, on 2021-April-21, 14:57, said:

That's wonderful to hear! I personally think at least some amount of cooperative bidding skills are not as transferable as they seem, since in a 2/1 auction there is simply more room for this kind of bid than in ACOL. If I'm not mistaken this is one reason of many why Larry Cohen recommends 2/1, it forces these general skills on new players as they form a big part of the system.

I'm sure you are correct regarding the space available in 2/1 for cooperative bidding. Although people here say they play ACOL, it is often more of a Std American 5 card major, 15-17 nt system but with few of the add ons. I don't know what a true ACOL system looks like but if it's anything like what my parents play, there is no cooperation.
I see even in a "standard" system, 4sf, nmf and so on all take up precious bidding space that could have been saved in a 2/1 auction.

[nige1]

jillybean, on 2021-March-27, 14:21, said:

I'm in New Zealand at the moment. While there are many expert players in this little country, the local club has many players who are stuck playing ACOL, counting points, losing trick count and taking on odd ball conventions such as CRO http://www.redcliffe...O%20Gerber.pdf.
There are a couple of players I have been playing with who are ready to move to the dark side, and others who are interested. If I remember when I was taught "SAYC", I was so hung up on rules and points and trying to master a system that had so many deficits, I felt I couldn't take on another system until I had mastered "SAYC". These players are in the same rut. Getting out of the system, point counting and rules approach made the game so much more interesting, exciting and successful. Most of the players are not playing pure ACOL, they open 5 card majors and play a strong NT. I think it would be best to introduce 2/1 but I'm interested to hear other opinions?

Good luck with your Missionary work, Jilly Bean. I hope New Zealanders don't feel patronised.
IMO, many comprehensive systems with good pedigrees are worth consideration (e.g. Crowhurst/Sharples Acol, Meckstroth/Rodwell Precision, Jassem Polish club, Marston/Burgess Moskito).
Nevertheless, John Matheson would agree that 2/1 is a formidable candidate. Strong American, Italian and French players enhanced it with appropriate conventions, like Gazzilli. After years of devising artificial systems, John decided to stop re-inventing the wheel, and successfully adopted 2/1.
When her daughter's primary-school class wanted to play Bridge, Ying Piper decided that they might as well plunge in at the deep end and start learning 2/1. Her insight was justified when her pupils easily assimilated her teachings and performed well in national competition.

[Douglas43]

jillybean, on 2021-March-28, 08:52, said:

And then there are the die-hard ACOL players such as my almost 90 year old parents, whom when I ask why are they playing 2C 20-21 and 2D 22+ say "because that is the system".

Maybe just teaching them to play Acol properly might be easier?