[jillybean]

We played matches 5&6 tonight, here's one board of interest.

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2♠ shows 5 spades and 5 of "another suit", less than 10 hcp.

How do you proceed from here?

[DavidKok]

Are you playing Lebensohl on this auction?

[Cyberyeti]

DavidKok, on 2021-May-19, 05:40, said:

Are you playing Lebensohl on this auction?

And if not why not You need some sort of method here, but we can comfortably be making a slam opposite a hand that will still show the weak version (xx, xxxxx, KJxx, Ax and many other hands are likely to be sufficient).

[jillybean]

DavidKok, on 2021-May-19, 05:40, said:

Are you playing Lebensohl on this auction?

Yes
Well, good question. Since this is a weak2 type hand, I'd say yes.
These are treatments I don't face in North America, so a lot of it is undiscussed.

[DavidKok]

So, pretending to be an expert bean counter for a moment, we have 23 HCP and partner ostensibly shows 8+ for the positive bid. Furthermore, they have picked our long suit. I think we should start to plan an auction to get to 6NT from our side (or 7 something if partner has two aces) to protect the black kings. Partner is unlikely to ever believe we have such a big hand, but we can force partner to disclose something about their cards.

In the traditional Lebensohl 3♥ here is GF, although some pairs play it as INV. Either way 3♠ should show a control and confirm hearts (which we will correct later). Partner is likely to sign off with 4♥, and then we can bid 4NT keycards. Depending on partnership agreements there is a risk partner will bid some conventional 3NT over 3♠ - what would this mean in your partnership?

Perhaps a true mastermind would bid 4♦ instead of 3♠, showing a long diamond hand. This way the ♦K would count as a key card and we can explore 7. Alas (or fortunately), that is not the approach I prefer.

[jillybean]

If we bid 3S, partner will cue or bid 3nt with a spade stopper.

[DavidKok]

That's rough, partner may well have a hand like Ax, T9xxx, KJx, xxx where 6NT in our hand can make on the two (marked?) finesses, but over 3♠-3NT any slam goes down on a club lead. Our failure to bid 4♠/4NT on the first round excludes both minors, so 4NT now is probably just keycards. I guess that's the best way forward.

[mycroft]

I would assume with OP that 4♠ is KC for hearts, so 4NT is - what? Having said that, what's the chance it would go 4♠-4NT?

There's an argument for blasting 6NT and seeing if they can find the successful defence.

[jillybean]

mycroft, on 2021-May-19, 09:00, said:

I would assume with OP that 4♠ is KC for hearts, so 4NT is - what? Having said that, what's the chance it would go 4♠-4NT?

There's an argument for blasting 6NT and seeing if they can find the successful defence.

4nt is a spade cue

[jillybean]

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[DavidKok]

Back, back! The 3♠ bid was a mistake because the chance of 3NT was too high. There's no fixing it now.

[Douglas43]

Not convinced by the original takeout double; I'd bid 3NT over 2S.

[Winstonm]

Without Lebensohl, I give opener a 7-count and that leaves on average 5 hcp for the other two hands. On hands like this where I hold secondary honors in what appears to be both of opponent's suits I rarely find the perfect holdings in partner's hand to make a great deal of tricks.

I would simply raise to 4H.

With Lebensohl, I would bid 3S, as there is no other bid to show strength that makes sense to me, but even then it might get dicey if a potential slam is wrong sided.

[Winstonm]

jillybean, on 2021-May-19, 11:21, said:

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I think the only prudent action now is 4H. I don't think there is an intelligent way to find out if partner has club help, and without club help we have wrong-sided every reasonable contract option.

[smerriman]

DavidKok, on 2021-May-19, 06:08, said:

In the traditional Lebensohl 3♥ here is GF, although some pairs play it as INV.

Um, how exactly can 3♥ be GF as a passed hand? (And even if you weren't a passed hand, 3♥ isn't GF in any form of lebensohl I've ever heard of..)

Douglas43, on 2021-May-19, 15:52, said:

Not convinced by the original takeout double; I'd bid 3NT over 2S.

I would treat that as a long minor (or some source of 9 tricks with a stopper) rather than showing a strong balanced hand.

[mikeh]

DavidKok, on 2021-May-19, 11:41, said:

Back, back! The 3♠ bid was a mistake because the chance of 3NT was too high. There's no fixing it now.

You bid 4H if scared of 3N being wrong-sided, but the club Ace rates to be onside, given our hand and placing a spade honour in partner’s hand, plus opener’s minor may be diamonds and, finally, partner may have a useful club holding, since he sure doesn’t have much in hearts.

[jillybean]

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I thought partner must have ♠Ace for his bid, he's not doing it on Qxx
Lead = A♣
Two pairs out of the 12 found the slam.

I will post more about this game when I get time but I will say we won both matches last night.

[jillybean]

Douglas43, on 2021-May-19, 15:52, said:

Not convinced by the original takeout double; I'd bid 3NT over 2S.

I do not like this option at all. 3nt is a trap and gives up on finding anything better.

[mycroft]

smerriman, on 2021-May-19, 19:22, said:

Um, how exactly can 3♥ be GF as a passed hand? (And even if you weren't a passed hand, 3♥ isn't GF in any form of lebensohl I've ever heard of..)

Easy. Doubles in direct seat of weak 2s are sound, usually 15+ or so counting shape.

Oh, you don't play that? Well, then, your auctions are harder, as you have to guess if partner has a "real" hand or not each time. But you get in more often. But it goes p-weak 2-X-XX (penalty) more often, too.

Cyberyeti and I have very different ideas on action over preempts. His style works for him; my style works for me. It looks like your style is closer to his than mine. We would both admit that our styles cost sometimes. Preempts Work™.

[smerriman]

mycroft, on 2021-May-19, 23:39, said:

Easy. Doubles in direct seat of weak 2s are sound, usually 15+ or so counting shape.

Perhaps. But even with a different range of doubles, when one of cue / leb-cue can show a GF with 4 hearts, and you have the option to bid 4♥ with 5 hearts, giving up heart invites still seems odd to me.

Either way, even if it's a good idea, I still wouldn't call it 'traditional'.